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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 27, 2024 12:27:31 GMT
And then produces three posts of ad hom and unsubstantiated pro-Labour rhetoric without providing a single evidenced counter point. Which part of 'unsubstantiated pro-Labour rhetoric' do you want evidence for? OK then, try quoting a Labour policy or a pledge that Starmer has made that leads you to believe that they will effectively address the issues you've raised here: ...I have repeatedly pointed out your repeated attacks on Labour, as if there wasn't enough ill informed already attacking Labour when Labour were in or out of office. Why do you presume to know that Starmer will not improve the environment within the UK? And thereby improve the lot of its residents. For instance, do you really believe that Starmer's Labour can't improve the NHS from the absolute shambles it has inherited?Your bias is the absolute negative. For me you are like a typical extremist... The floor is yours. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jul 27, 2024 12:33:06 GMT
Why do we have so many foreign doctors ? Because going back as far as the early 1960s there were never enough British people who wanted to be doctors, which is why the then Health Secretary ENOCH POWEL agreed to a recruitment campaign in The Commonwealth. Wrong There were plenty who wanted to be doctors. There were simply not enough opportunities to train them |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 27, 2024 12:50:44 GMT
Why is See2 not banned? He only posts ad hom. He never counters the point but only ever attacks the poster with unsubstantiated nonsense. Maybe because we won't have any posters left, soon. But you do have a point. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 27, 2024 12:56:12 GMT
So was your claim that “Tories forgot that there is no queue of doctors waiting to work in the NHS”a lie or just ignorance? Perhaps I should have stated that the "Tories forgot that there is no queue of BRITISH doctors waiting to work in the NHS" Yes perhaps you should have posted a statement that obviously wasn’t true and posted a more accurate one instead. |
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Post by witchfinder on Jul 27, 2024 13:06:26 GMT
Because going back as far as the early 1960s there were never enough British people who wanted to be doctors, which is why the then Health Secretary ENOCH POWEL agreed to a recruitment campaign in The Commonwealth. Wrong There were plenty who wanted to be doctors. There were simply not enough opportunities to train them There were shortages of BOTH doctors and nurses before the creation of the NHS, and it is not true to say that this problem was caused by a lack of trainning places. Even when trainned, most British doctors and nurses avoided both filelds of medicine, and areas of the UK which were deemed as "less glorious", these fields of medicine became know as "The Cinderella Specialities", and included Psychiatry and Geriatrics. As a Welshman, and if you know anything about your history, you ought to know that places such as The Rhondda and Swansea attracted large numbers of overseas GPs and Hospital doctors in the 1960s. This ridiculous idea that if you stop the import of skills shortages, will suddenly result in British people taking on these roles has been well and truly blown out of the water. The relatively small Yorkshire town where I live has a high proportion of Care Homes for both the aged, and for children and adults with learning difficulties. Until just a few years ago many of these jobs were taken by Eastern Europeans, but then SUDDENLY we saw a significent rise in the numbers of young African people in the town, something very prominent in an area which is 99% White British. Today, Nigerians are doing the jobs that Poles used to do, the same jobs that local born people are not in the slightest bit interested in. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 27, 2024 13:11:00 GMT
Wrong There were plenty who wanted to be doctors. There were simply not enough opportunities to train them There were shortages of BOTH doctors and nurses before the creation of the NHS, and it is not true to say that this problem was caused by a lack of trainning places. Even when trainned, most British doctors and nurses avoided both filelds of medicine, and areas of the UK which were deemed as "less glorious", these fields of medicine became know as "The Cinderella Specialities", and included Psychiatry and Geriatrics. As a Welshman, and if you know anything about your history, you ought to know that places such as The Rhondda and Swansea attracted large numbers of overseas GPs and Hospital doctors in the 1960s. This ridiculous idea that if you stop the import of skills shortages, will suddenly result in British people taking on these roles has been well and truly blown out of the water. The relatively small Yorkshire town where I live has a high proportion of Care Homes for both the aged, and for children and adults with learning difficulties. Until just a few years ago many of these jobs were taken by Eastern Europeans, but then SUDDENLY we saw a significent rise in the numbers of young African people in the town, something very prominent in an area which is 99% White British. Today, Nigerians are doing the jobs that Poles used to do, the same jobs that local born people are not in the slightest bit interested in. Yes people from relatively impoverished third world countries will tend to work cheaper and do shitty jobs that the locals won’t do . Does that reflect badly on the locals ? Perhaps care workers should be paid more and better trained . If NHS workers need better wages and training , why not care workers ? Or …maybe we should just import more NHS staff from third world countries . I can never tell where lefties stand in this . |
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Post by witchfinder on Jul 27, 2024 14:36:05 GMT
There were shortages of BOTH doctors and nurses before the creation of the NHS, and it is not true to say that this problem was caused by a lack of trainning places. Even when trainned, most British doctors and nurses avoided both filelds of medicine, and areas of the UK which were deemed as "less glorious", these fields of medicine became know as "The Cinderella Specialities", and included Psychiatry and Geriatrics. As a Welshman, and if you know anything about your history, you ought to know that places such as The Rhondda and Swansea attracted large numbers of overseas GPs and Hospital doctors in the 1960s. This ridiculous idea that if you stop the import of skills shortages, will suddenly result in British people taking on these roles has been well and truly blown out of the water. The relatively small Yorkshire town where I live has a high proportion of Care Homes for both the aged, and for children and adults with learning difficulties. Until just a few years ago many of these jobs were taken by Eastern Europeans, but then SUDDENLY we saw a significent rise in the numbers of young African people in the town, something very prominent in an area which is 99% White British. Today, Nigerians are doing the jobs that Poles used to do, the same jobs that local born people are not in the slightest bit interested in. Yes people from relatively impoverished third world countries will tend to work cheaper and do shitty jobs that the locals won’t do . Does that reflect badly on the locals ? Perhaps care workers should be paid more and better trained . If NHS workers need better wages and training , why not care workers ? Or …maybe we should just import more NHS staff from third world countries . I can never tell where lefties stand in this . The National Minimum Wage applies to all staff, all employees, native British or migrant workers, in all industries that apply the National Minimum Wage .. My chief argument here is that migrant workers do not get lower pay than British workers, therefore the excuse of "low pay" is not part of the reason why migrants are taking these jobs. The Number 1 reason is that these jobs are often not very pleasant jobs, and usually involve tasks that many people refuse to face. The Liberal Democrats as part of their manifesto proposed that workers in the care industry recieve a higher rate of Minimum Wage, which I believe is a good idea, and could help to resolve the crisis in social care staff. The other side of the economic argument is that this will push up costs for the sector, which in turn will impact on us all, because in large part, the government / tax payer pays for care. When Blair came to power in 1997, one of the ways in which he was able to solve the recruitment crisis in our NHS relatively quickly, and therefore bring down waiting lists, was because he went out and brought foreign doctors and nurses. The alternative would have been a long wait of many years until British trained professionals would HOPEFULLY be ready. |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jul 27, 2024 14:59:29 GMT
And they need to be properly and rigorously assessed. And they need to be properly and VERY rigorously assessed Don't necessarily disagree, but the question is by whom? We can't get doctors to do it as we haven't got enough and they would be too expensive. It's currently outsourced to private companies where it's basically a box ticking exercise where lots of people are turned down automatically then have to win on appeal. Again expensive. What system are you thinking of? |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 27, 2024 15:21:50 GMT
And they need to be properly and VERY rigorously assessed Don't necessarily disagree, but the question is by whom? We can't get doctors to do it as we haven't got enough and they would be too expensive. It's currently outsourced to private companies where it's basically a box ticking exercise where lots of people are turned down automatically then have to win on appeal. Again expensive. What system are you thinking of? How does the system work now? Does someone just rock up, say: "I'm ill" and get a hand out? I presume there's some sort of assessment but I meet plenty of people whose "Disability" is a lifestyle choice, like alcoholism, drug use, being too fat to work or a nebulous "Mental health" issue like ADHD or "Personality disorder" ie they basically just don't want to work. Well guess what? I'd rather stay at home all day and get pissed rather than go to work but I don't. And it's time we stopped indulging idleness as a lifestyle. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 27, 2024 15:51:11 GMT
Yes people from relatively impoverished third world countries will tend to work cheaper and do shitty jobs that the locals won’t do . Does that reflect badly on the locals ? Perhaps care workers should be paid more and better trained . If NHS workers need better wages and training , why not care workers ? Or …maybe we should just import more NHS staff from third world countries . I can never tell where lefties stand in this . The National Minimum Wage applies to all staff, all employees, native British or migrant workers, in all industries that apply the National Minimum Wage .. My chief argument here is that migrant workers do not get lower pay than British workers, therefore the excuse of "low pay" is not part of the reason why migrants are taking these jobs. The Number 1 reason is that these jobs are often not very pleasant jobs, and usually involve tasks that many people refuse to face. The Liberal Democrats as part of their manifesto proposed that workers in the care industry recieve a higher rate of Minimum Wage, which I believe is a good idea, and could help to resolve the crisis in social care staff. The other side of the economic argument is that this will push up costs for the sector, which in turn will impact on us all, because in large part, the government / tax payer pays for care. When Blair came to power in 1997, one of the ways in which he was able to solve the recruitment crisis in our NHS relatively quickly, and therefore bring down waiting lists, was because he went out and brought foreign doctors and nurses. The alternative would have been a long wait of many years until British trained professionals would HOPEFULLY be ready. The minimum wage is just that the minimum wage. It is NOT the national minimum accepted wage . Until you understand that , it’s pointless trying to engage you in serious debate. Care workers have similar role to some HCAs in the NHS. I never hear lefties demanding parity with NHS pay. Pushing up costs doesn’t seem to be too much of an obstacle for an argument for higher NHS pay . So we are back with the minimum wages possible being enough for imported cheap labour ( ones that are willing to accept the lowest POSSIBLE rate of pay ) for care work instead of higher rates of pay and better training/ resources for locals . All with your blessing ..a leftie. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jul 27, 2024 15:56:40 GMT
In spite of all the pre election promises about not raising tax, it seems pretty obvious that from election day +1, Starmer and Reeves have been preparing us for tax rises, and they're hardly being discreet about it. It seems sensible to me that they keep to that promise. There are other ways of dealing with this. For example, look at ways you can cut industrial costs via changes in regulations. A lot of regulations are a bit senseless and economically inefficient, so simplifying the system and doing that in consultation with businessmen would help. Other than that they can find savings in public services. There is a lot of waste where they pay over the market rate for goods and services from private firms. If they are then still left with a shortfall they could slow their investment plans down or borrow more, which are the two worst options to tax rises. I don't think they should increase military spending. I think the military are a bit like the NHS and waste vast amounts on stupid things. |
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Post by Bentley on Jul 27, 2024 16:04:23 GMT
Both the NHS and the UK military suffer a lack of a defined objective.
Both should be reviewed with the purpose of asking and answering two questions
1 What exactly do we expect ( with defined perimeters) ?
2 Can we afford the answer to 1 ?
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Post by ratcliff on Jul 27, 2024 16:26:41 GMT
And they need to be properly and VERY rigorously assessed Don't necessarily disagree, but the question is by whom? We can't get doctors to do it as we haven't got enough and they would be too expensive. It's currently outsourced to private companies where it's basically a box ticking exercise where lots of people are turned down automatically then have to win on appeal. Again expensive. What system are you thinking of? Firstly a full medical and report from an independent doctor before any assessment of eligibility. Not the personal GP. Who would do it? Type of people who do not put up with BS and can see through the ''I can't'' and MH b*llocks pretence often offered to the woke social workers sort who lap it up . Maybe retired middle/senior management military types would fit the bill ? I'd have assessment over a period of time , 2/4 arranged appointments in different locations over 6/8 weeks and inspectors turning up at the house unannounced/random filming - if someone is claiming to be so disabled so they cannot work and earn their own money they should be at home 24/7 - not out working cash in hand or if they are ''well'' enough to go out to friends/gym/shops they are not that disabled enough to live off the taxpayer and can work . Allow one missed random visit provided that a credible excuse is forthcoming within 72 hours - no more and if they are ''out' on a second random visit then cease all handouts . Something along those lines, there's far too much fraud from spongers and far too much ''this is how to beat the system'' advice from do gooding lefty websites and advice lines - don't expect you to agree bt you asked my view. |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 27, 2024 16:46:18 GMT
Don't necessarily disagree, but the question is by whom? We can't get doctors to do it as we haven't got enough and they would be too expensive. It's currently outsourced to private companies where it's basically a box ticking exercise where lots of people are turned down automatically then have to win on appeal. Again expensive. What system are you thinking of? Firstly a full medical and report from an independent doctor before any assessment of eligibility. Not the personal GP. Who would do it? Type of people who do not put up with BS and can see through the ''I can't'' and MH b*llocks pretence often offered to the woke social workers sort who lap it up . Maybe retired middle/senior management military types would fit the bill ? I'd have assessment over a period of time , 2/4 arranged appointments in different locations over 6/8 weeks and inspectors turning up at the house unannounced/random filming - if someone is claiming to be so disabled so they cannot work and earn their own money they should be at home 24/7 - not out working cash in hand or if they are ''well'' enough to go out to friends/gym/shops they are not that disabled enough to live off the taxpayer and can work . Allow one missed random visit provided that a credible excuse is forthcoming within 72 hours - no more and if they are ''out' on a second random visit then cease all handouts . Something along those lines, there's far too much fraud from spongers and far too much ''this is how to beat the system'' advice from do gooding lefty websites and advice lines - don't expect you to agree bt you asked my view. Yep, that's pretty much it. While an applicants medical history is obviously important, the decision should not be made by their GP. For the record, one of my neighbours is blind and has worked for decades (I knew him before he was a neighbour). And I used to work with an ex forces chap who'd lost both legs yet still came to work everyday. So there's not much excuse for not working IMHO. |
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Post by Totheleft on Jul 27, 2024 18:41:41 GMT
Are we talking about disability benefits
Or unemployed
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