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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 13, 2024 7:57:54 GMT
Not sure that is true - in France Macron forced EDF to provide power at below cost when the Ukraine crisis blew up. Of course EDF were almost bankrupted and needed a Billion dollar bailout by the taxpayer.. Yes, I should have added: Not without massive taxpayer subsidies. Which amounts to the same thing: Either way, you're going to pay. We ALREADY pay massive subsidies to these companies - they are called Tax Breaks. Taking money from the Public Purse to support businesses. All The Best
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Post by sheepy on Jul 13, 2024 7:59:28 GMT
Yes, I should have added: Not without massive taxpayer subsidies. Which amounts to the same thing: Either way, you're going to pay. We ALREADY pay massive subsidies to these companies - they are called Tax Breaks. Taking money from the Public Purse to support businesses. All The Best Which he actually said either way you are going to pay.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 13, 2024 12:12:08 GMT
Define "cost to provide"... Start with the market price for the commodity for sale. Say the market price for gas: A utility company cannot sell gas for less than it costs them to buy, whether they're government or shareholder owned. Non essential and not earned share dividends should not be in that. Debt repayments for loans taken to support shareholder dividends should not be in that. Debt repayments for loans taken out for non-core investment should not be in that. Let sum that up and look at the margins: Many energy companies went bust because they operated on wafer thin margins as it was. If, after all the above, their profit margin was only a few percent (which it mostly was) then ordering them to sell for x% less means they go bust. The French government bankrupted EDF like that. And then had to basically bail them out. So cheaper bills = higher taxes. Take your pick - there's no free lunch.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 13, 2024 12:13:18 GMT
Yes, I should have added: Not without massive taxpayer subsidies. Which amounts to the same thing: Either way, you're going to pay. We ALREADY pay massive subsidies to these companies - they are called Tax Breaks. Taking money from the Public Purse to support businesses. All The Best Okay, take that away and you can have higher bills instead.
Either way you're paying. There is no free lunch, Nulla.
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 14, 2024 0:59:03 GMT
We ALREADY pay massive subsidies to these companies - they are called Tax Breaks. Taking money from the Public Purse to support businesses. All The Best Okay, take that away and you can have higher bills instead.
Either way you're paying. There is no free lunch, Nulla.
There is for shareholders. Get free money for doing fuck all and taking no risk; and NEVER being asked to hold a share of the liabilities. All The Best
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 14, 2024 1:27:02 GMT
Okay, take that away and you can have higher bills instead.
Either way you're paying. There is no free lunch, Nulla.
There is for shareholders. Get free money for doing fuck all and taking no risk; and NEVER being asked to hold a share of the liabilities. All The Best LOL! Shareholders put up the money, Nulla. And they stand to lose the lot if the company folds. That's not "No risk". Far from it and plenty have lost their shirts. No one has to be a Shareholder. It's all about risk and reward. And no one takes that risk without the potential reward. Remember: No Shareholders, no company. That's how capitalism works.
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 14, 2024 1:40:51 GMT
There is for shareholders. Get free money for doing fuck all and taking no risk; and NEVER being asked to hold a share of the liabilities. All The Best LOL! Shareholders put up the money, Nulla. 1) And they stand to lose the lot if the company folds.That's not "No risk". Far from it and plenty have lost their shirts. No one has to be a Shareholder. It's all about risk and reward. And no one takes that risk without the potential reward. 2) Remember: No Shareholders, no company. 3) That's how capitalism works. 1) No they don't. These companies are both too big to fail, and too important to fail, so Taxpayers will ALWAYS be used to prop them up, which means Shareholder carry almost Zero risk. Any sector of the economy that is so integral to the basic functioning of both society and the economy that if it looks likely to fail will always be bailed out by the Taxpayer should be owned by the Taxpayer, for the Taxpayer; not owned by private shareholders who in reality contribute nothing, but constantly leech operating revenue from the company. 2) Millions of companies exist worldwide that have no shareholders. 3) When Taxpayer money has to be used to support appalling low wages for the lowest paid just so they can meet the basic cost of living, while at the same time the top 1% can ever increase their share of total wealth it is abundantly clear that the current model of Capitalism is not working. The last decade has shown that beyond doubt. All The Best
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Post by morayloon on Jul 14, 2024 2:11:15 GMT
Theyve got Sturgeon, Balls and Osbourne on ITV. Two lefties and a thief, although her husband got the rap. The Procurator Fiscal has not decided whether Murrells case will go to court. To call Sturgeon a thief, without any facts to back your accusation, is libelous.
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Post by morayloon on Jul 14, 2024 2:44:16 GMT
Well, the SNP also got wiped out, putting indyref2 to bed for the foreseeable future. The polls suggest that it is a 50:50 split between Independence and Unionism. That's a helluva number of Scots wanting out of the toxic Union. The SNP still governs in Scotland and the test, for the SNP, in 2026 will be how they can capitalise on the poor showing of the Starmer Government (almost guaranteed)
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 14, 2024 6:31:14 GMT
Any sector of the economy that is so integral to the basic functioning of both society and the economy that if it looks likely to fail will always be bailed out by the Taxpayer should be owned by the Taxpayer, for the Taxpayer; not owned by private shareholders who in reality contribute nothing, but constantly leech operating revenue from the company. Hmm - so nationalised Supermarkets?, after food is quite important to the economy. What about nationalised car manufacturers? Or Mobile phone services? It's actually quite difficult to come up with a sector of the economy that is not integral to the functioning of society.
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 14, 2024 16:43:16 GMT
Any sector of the economy that is so integral to the basic functioning of both society and the economy that if it looks likely to fail will always be bailed out by the Taxpayer should be owned by the Taxpayer, for the Taxpayer; not owned by private shareholders who in reality contribute nothing, but constantly leech operating revenue from the company. Hmm - so nationalised Supermarkets?, after food is quite important to the economy. What about nationalised car manufacturers? Or Mobile phone services? It's actually quite difficult to come up with a sector of the economy that is not integral to the functioning of society. Most homes in the UK have access to more than one supermarket, or more than one car retailer, and more than one mobile phone operator. Despite pretence to the opposite that is not true of electricity, water, gas, etc. If Morrisons goes under tomorrow there are at least 6 other supermarkets within reasonable distance of my house that I can buy food from, and dozens of smaller independent retailers. If Anglian Water go under tomorrow there is no one else to provide water, because even if I switch my supplier to another water company it still has to flow through infrastructure owned and maintained by Anglian Water or their appointed insolvency agent. Thus to ensure water supplies and sewerage services to 4.2 Million customers the government would have to step in. We've already seen the groundwork being laid with the Government admitting it might have to step in to ensure continuity of service to Thames Water customers when TW mooted going bust last year. Same is true of electricity and gas. The Government currently operates ScotRail. InterCity East Coast, Northern Trains, South Eastern, TransPennine Express, and Wales & Border Franchise within the rail sector because otherwise they would collapse. And remember, no nation on earth except this one was fucking stupid enough to privatise water, not even the Super-Champions of Free Market Capitalism - America. Did you complain when the Government dumped £Millions into Tata, a privately owned (by a foreign national, with parent company listed in Bombay) Steel company? Did you complain when the UK Government bailed out the privately owned banking sector, ushering in two decades of ideological austerity? Why is it OK for the Public Purse to bail out Private Companies to protect Shareholders, but not OK of the Public Purse to own and operate publicly owned companies to protect British consumers? All The Best
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 14, 2024 17:01:28 GMT
I can see the argument for industries that are monopolies to be nationalised but as we see with water, nationalisation does not provide any better service.
The reason that the water companies were privatised in the first place was that when nationalised they were starved of investment by successive governments who would rather spend taxpayers money on issues that generated immediate political returns.
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 14, 2024 17:19:06 GMT
I can see the argument for industries that are monopolies to be nationalised but as we see with water, nationalisation does not provide any better service.
The reason that the water companies were privatised in the first place was that when nationalised they were starved of investment by successive governments who would rather spend taxpayers money on issues that generated immediate political returns. How has privatisation been an improvement? Leakage rates are almost as high as they have ever been. Sewerage discharges are higher then they have ever been. Bill are higher than they have ever been. Systemic debt is higher that it has ever been. How has any of this been a better deal for the consumer? Since privatisation revenues from bills have MORE than paid for the money spent on infrastructure maintenance and improvement. So why the need for such excessive debt? To pay shareholder dividends. Debts that now threaten the existence of more that one Water Company. If a water company should fail it should be taken back into public ownership and shareholders, who have taken unwarranted and unsustainable dividends for decades, should lose out. All The Best
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 14, 2024 17:30:49 GMT
It generated a hell of a lot of investment - which is what was lacking before.
Yes, by all means renationalise but dont expect anything to be better - history shows it wont be.
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 14, 2024 18:32:20 GMT
It generated a hell of a lot of investment - which is what was lacking before. Yes, by all means renationalise but dont expect anything to be better - history shows it wont be. The history of water companies since privatisation is appalling. How much has been pissed up the wall in unwarranted and unsustainable dividends? £57 Billion! All of that should have gone into investment in infrastructure improvement. All The Best
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