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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 6, 2024 21:57:29 GMT
Have those figures been adjusted to account for population growth? No, they have not... I agree. If they had been adjusted for population growth then Labour would be even less popular now than in the disaster (for them) of the previous GE. Because as a percentage of votes cast Corbyn got 32.2% in 2019; whereas Starmer in 2024 got 33.7%. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but 33.7 is in fact greater than 32.2. Thereby indicating increasing popularity. Because like all non-compulsory popular-votes the ONLY thing that ic counted and makes a difference is Votes Cast... Agreed. As a percentage of votes cast. And I agree that that is the only thing that counts when it comes to win or lose. No dispute. But as evidence of popularity, which was the original claim, the numbers point in the opposite direction: Fewer actual votes from a larger pool of voters is direct evidence of a decline in popularity. And that doesn't just apply to Labour - it applies to all of the "Big Three" (well, the Big Two and in reality the 4th party). Indeed. Voter apathy is perhaps as high as I have ever seen. Systemic changes will be needed to reverse the trend. All The Best |
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Post by Hutchyns on Jul 6, 2024 22:13:07 GMT
wassock
I'd say the overriding feeling in the country was that people wanted the Tories out. That was the stronger desire compared to any particular wish to be governed by Labour. Therefore you have to consider the combined strength of the electorate that were sick and tired of the duplicitous Tories .....i.e Reform voters, Liberal Voters, SNP voters, Labour Voters. Amongst those the Left Wing faction worked the smartest, with Lib and Lab working in tandem, depending on the constituency, in order to unseat the Tory. For all the excellent turn out to cast votes for Reform, it was the Left Wing opposition to the Tories that was the more numerous (Lab, Lib, SNP, Plaid etc) and so the non Tory Government we've ended with naturally has a Left Wing leaning.
Remember also, when we see the news from France at the moment with various Parties standing down in order to engineer a particular result of keeping a Party they dislike most from gaining power. Now just suppose that was this Country ..... stand all the present Tory candidates down and who would they want to win if it was a straight fight between Starmer's Labour or Farage's Reform to take power ?. I'm totally convinced they'd want a Starmer victory, and two thirds of them would fit very nicely into his Party right now. They dislike Farage, and they run a mile at any proposal that would see some old fashioned Conservatism enacted.
And now, along with their media friends, they're already, despite Thursday's disastrous result, proclaiming that a wishy washy social democrat left of centre Conservative Party must be maintained at all costs ... and no nasty Righties allowed anywhere near it, let alone be allowed to lead it. The Tories are determined not to change, therefore we must be even more determined not to vote for them ..... once that is firmly established, the futility of grouping Conservative and Reform together for academic 'what if' reasons will be sufficiently clearly understood, that it will be discontinued.
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Post by sandypine on Jul 7, 2024 6:28:58 GMT
It is clear that the electorate have decided, now we have to be clear what they have decided. Without doubt stopping the small boats has won overwhelming support as most well supported parties have a policy to stop them. Most well supported parties also had policies to reduce immigration. Labour have now been given the chance to use their preferred method and that was to 'smash the gangs'. Labour also had a policy to reduce immigration as it was agreed it was too high, although perhaps their numbers and what is 'too high' are a bit diaphanous. However we can be clear in the only poll that matters that the wishes of the electorate are to stop the small boats and to reduce immigration (one assumes from the numbers currently). We can also be clear that if Labour do not stop the small boats and do not reduce immigration from the current levels in the term of this parliament then they have not fulfilled the wishes of the vast majority of the electorate. That remains to be seen. I am pessimistic.
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Post by Pacifico on Jul 7, 2024 7:05:54 GMT
It is clear that the electorate have decided, now we have to be clear what they have decided. Without doubt stopping the small boats has won overwhelming support as most well supported parties have a policy to stop them. Most well supported parties also had policies to reduce immigration. Labour have now been given the chance to use their preferred method and that was to 'smash the gangs'. Labour also had a policy to reduce immigration as it was agreed it was too high, although perhaps their numbers and what is 'too high' are a bit diaphanous. However we can be clear in the only poll that matters that the wishes of the electorate are to stop the small boats and to reduce immigration (one assumes from the numbers currently). We can also be clear that if Labour do not stop the small boats and do not reduce immigration from the current levels in the term of this parliament then they have not fulfilled the wishes of the vast majority of the electorate. That remains to be seen. I am pessimistic.I don't think there is anyone who believes that Labour have any chance (or even intention) of stopping the boats. It is not an important issue for them. |
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Post by bancroft on Jul 7, 2024 10:52:55 GMT
Blair's idea is to have digital ID cards, yawn didn't they try this during the lockdowns some are equating this to Stalinism.
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Post by wassock on Jul 7, 2024 13:20:14 GMT
If you say the people wanted Labour, why did the Tories and Reform between them achieve over 1 million more votes than Labour? If Farage had joined the conservatives, the result would have been a close call. Well, if you add Labour and Lib-Dems together they got 13,223,854 votes, or 45.9% of the vote. The Tories + Reform got 10,944,532 votes, or 38% of the vote Heck add up everyone not Tory + Reform, throw in some the French votes that weren't cast for Front Nationale and see what that comes to - its just as meaningful. All this duplicitous, dishonest, mental gymnastics to try and make the outcome look different is just tiresome fuckwittery that no one with an actual functioning brain believes for even a second. We have a FPTP System You may not like it, I certainly don't like it. But it is what we have... ...end of. You might prefer PR, I certainly prefer PR. But we don't have PR. We can't just pretend that our electoral system works differently than it actually does to make it sound like the party that won didn't win. That is what children do; when they don't like reality they "play pretend". Grow the fuck up and accept Labour won... ...end of. How about we give Labour a chance before we start slagging them off; just like we gave Johnson, Truss and Sunak a chance - until they proved they were not fit for office. All The Best The reason why I mentioned Tory + Reform because some conservatives asked Farage to join their party, so it was kinda a tie up of the two. I'm not aware of Labour asking Lib Dems to join forces, but if you have a link, I wish to read it. I'm fully aware of the FPTP system, so as I said in my post, the next two elections should be under that same system, them implement a Swiss style system. I'm not saying their system is bang on, but it is better than FPTP, and it would benefit all parties. You may think I have to pick a side, I don't . In fact, I didn't vote this year. Unlike a few, I can be impartial so I'm stating a system that's better than what we have. When people go down the character route of Truss this, Sunak that etc.. then please excuse me because I don't do those petty arguments. Such things interest some, policies, interest rates, immigration, keeping out of the EU etc.. interests me. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 7, 2024 13:24:01 GMT
It is clear that the electorate have decided, now we have to be clear what they have decided. Without doubt stopping the small boats has won overwhelming support as most well supported parties have a policy to stop them. Most well supported parties also had policies to reduce immigration. Labour have now been given the chance to use their preferred method and that was to 'smash the gangs'. Labour also had a policy to reduce immigration as it was agreed it was too high, although perhaps their numbers and what is 'too high' are a bit diaphanous. However we can be clear in the only poll that matters that the wishes of the electorate are to stop the small boats and to reduce immigration (one assumes from the numbers currently). We can also be clear that if Labour do not stop the small boats and do not reduce immigration from the current levels in the term of this parliament then they have not fulfilled the wishes of the vast majority of the electorate. That remains to be seen. I am pessimistic.I don't think there is anyone who believes that Labour have any chance (or even intention) of stopping the boats. It is not an important issue for them. Oh I would agree, the point I am making is that we have had a nationwide poll in terms of the GE and the majority of voters voted for a party that had stopping the small boats as a policy and reducing immigration as a policy. There is no doubt as regards what the majority of the nation want. So no one can turn round and say stopping the small boats is not popular or reducing immigration is not popular irrespective of the ins and outs of enacting those policies. It matters little if it is important to the Labour party, they made their policies and it is important to the electorate as is clearly demonstrated in the GE. |
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Post by wassock on Jul 7, 2024 13:24:21 GMT
wassock I'd say the overriding feeling in the country was that people wanted the Tories out. That was the stronger desire compared to any particular wish to be governed by Labour. Therefore you have to consider the combined strength of the electorate that were sick and tired of the duplicitous Tories .....i.e Reform voters, Liberal Voters, SNP voters, Labour Voters. Amongst those the Left Wing faction worked the smartest, with Lib and Lab working in tandem, depending on the constituency, in order to unseat the Tory. For all the excellent turn out to cast votes for Reform, it was the Left Wing opposition to the Tories that was the more numerous (Lab, Lib, SNP, Plaid etc) and so the non Tory Government we've ended with naturally has a Left Wing leaning. Remember also, when we see the news from France at the moment with various Parties standing down in order to engineer a particular result of keeping a Party they dislike most from gaining power. Now just suppose that was this Country ..... stand all the present Tory candidates down and who would they want to win if it was a straight fight between Starmer's Labour or Farage's Reform to take power ?. I'm totally convinced they'd want a Starmer victory, and two thirds of them would fit very nicely into his Party right now. They dislike Farage, and they run a mile at any proposal that would see some old fashioned Conservatism enacted. And now, along with their media friends, they're already, despite Thursday's disastrous result, proclaiming that a wishy washy social democrat left of centre Conservative Party must be maintained at all costs ... and no nasty Righties allowed anywhere near it, let alone be allowed to lead it. The Tories are determined not to change, therefore we must be even more determined not to vote for them ..... once that is firmly established, the futility of grouping Conservative and Reform together for academic 'what if' reasons will be sufficiently clearly understood, that it will be discontinued. Unfortunately with anything Labour, out of the frying pan and into the fire. I just hope they don't wreck the NHS and education with more of Labour's PFI, we're still paying for it. |
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Post by aristaeus on Jul 7, 2024 14:10:22 GMT
Have those figures been adjusted to account for population growth? No, they have not... I agree. If they had been adjusted for population growth then Labour would be even less popular now than in the disaster (for them) of the previous GE. Because as a percentage of votes cast Corbyn got 32.2% in 2019; whereas Starmer in 2024 got 33.7%. Now, correct me if I am wrong, but 33.7 is in fact greater than 32.2. Thereby indicating increasing popularity. Because like all non-compulsory popular-votes the ONLY thing that ic counted and makes a difference is Votes Cast... Agreed. As a percentage of votes cast. And I agree that that is the only thing that counts when it comes to win or lose. No dispute. But as evidence of popularity, which was the original claim, the numbers point in the opposite direction: Fewer actual votes from a larger pool of voters is direct evidence of a decline in popularity. And that doesn't just apply to Labour - it applies to all of the "Big Three" (well, the Big Two and in reality the 4th party). A lot of Labour supporters will have voted Lib Dem tactically, so not everyone who supports them would have voted for them. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 7, 2024 14:53:41 GMT
I agree. If they had been adjusted for population growth then Labour would be even less popular now than in the disaster (for them) of the previous GE. Agreed. As a percentage of votes cast. And I agree that that is the only thing that counts when it comes to win or lose. No dispute. But as evidence of popularity, which was the original claim, the numbers point in the opposite direction: Fewer actual votes from a larger pool of voters is direct evidence of a decline in popularity. And that doesn't just apply to Labour - it applies to all of the "Big Three" (well, the Big Two and in reality the 4th party). A lot of Labour supporters will have voted Lib Dem tactically, so not everyone who supports them would have voted for them. They may have done but one cannot assume that. All that counts is what has been voted for and if Labour supporters voted LibDem one can only assume that that is a vote for the LibDems and their policies. |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 7, 2024 15:49:47 GMT
Blair's idea is to have digital ID cards, yawn didn't they try this during the lockdowns some are equating this to Stalinism. Blair has always been way more right wing than left, so this is hardly surprising. All The Best |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 7, 2024 16:29:21 GMT
Blair's idea is to have digital ID cards, yawn didn't they try this during the lockdowns some are equating this to Stalinism. Blair has always been way more right wing than left, so this is hardly surprising. All The Best LOL!  |
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Post by Deleted on Jul 7, 2024 16:32:34 GMT
Blair has always been way more right wing than left, so this is hardly surprising. All The Best LOL! I know, it's like they even believe the crap they post on here. |
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Post by vlk on Jul 7, 2024 17:24:07 GMT
Blair's idea is to have digital ID cards, yawn didn't they try this during the lockdowns some are equating this to Stalinism. Blair has always been way more right wing than left, so this is hardly surprising. All The Best So, do you think that the 45 years of uninterrupted Tory-rule still continues? Many lefties really say so. |
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Post by aristaeus on Jul 7, 2024 18:09:27 GMT
Blair has always been way more right wing than left, so this is hardly surprising. All The Best LOL! I don't think someone who thinks Farage is centre right and Starmer is hard left can criticise someone else's Overton window |
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