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Post by see2 on Jul 18, 2024 10:59:32 GMT
Go on, what EXACT rights are they signing away for "nothing in return". Willing to bet you can't provide evidence for even ONE. All The Best Well let's see, Nulla: "PM chooses to make illegal migration main theme of European Political Community summit at Blenheim Palace"www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/17/starmer-fire-starting-gun-closer-relationship-with-europe/Quelle surprise. Which of course means that we'll be taking more illegal immigrants, and doing nothing about the boats, in return for the square root of fuck all. For goodness sake, do buy, borrow or steal a single brain cell from somewhere. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 18, 2024 11:01:55 GMT
There are many legal ways if domestic law takes precedence over international law and in any case if a National Emergency is declared then that is exactly what happens. We can suspend all sorts of laws and make news ones in the event of an emergency as Covid illustrated only too clearly. We now no longer believe that any hands are tied by both International and domestic law as they can be overcome at the drop of a hat and in every situation the rights of UK citizens can be walked all over if it suits. The 'consequences' are that France and the EU will have to deal with their immigration problems without a pressure valve funneling migrants to the UK. You appear to be flapping around looking for a way to end this particular Law. None of your comments are relevant in this area. The consequences of walking away from the ECHR would leave would be dictator types the freedom to do exactly the same without any consequences. With Rightists on the march the timing could not be worse. The problem is the ECHR is a living instrument whereby judges, not elected representatives, make judgments on law and modernise the law as they see fit for modern times. We signed one treaty and find it has been extended beyond recognition. This is the way bureaucratic control works it binds the citizen and the citizens representatives into a tight mesh of restrictions based on law and even worse law that is no longer simply defined or separated from judgements over many years. Currently Bureaucracies have seized power by way of courts and International treaties that is gradually enmeshing the democracies. We can see why teh US steered clear of many of them as their own bureaucracy prefers precedence. I assume by dictator types you mean the US who are not signatories. |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 18, 2024 11:06:52 GMT
Go on, what EXACT rights are they signing away for "nothing in return". Willing to bet you can't provide evidence for even ONE. All The Best Well let's see, Nulla: "PM chooses to make illegal migration main theme of European Political Community summit at Blenheim Palace"www.telegraph.co.uk/politics/2024/07/17/starmer-fire-starting-gun-closer-relationship-with-europe/Quelle surprise. Which of course means that we'll be taking more illegal immigrants, and doing nothing about the boats, in return for the square root of fuck all. So what EXACT Right has been signed away? All The Best |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 18, 2024 11:16:21 GMT
So what EXACT Right has been signed away? All The Best
Well, if you're on a housing list then good luck because you'll now be pushed further down the list.
So say goodbye to your rights.
If you're on an NHS waiting list then good luck because you'll now be pushed further down the list.
So say goodbye to your rights there too.
If you're trying to get your kids into a good school then good luck because you'll now be pushed further down the list.
So say goodbye to your rights yet again.
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Post by see2 on Jul 18, 2024 11:23:11 GMT
LOL, we need to whinge in order to allow judgements on wider opinions to be formed, Really? It seems to me that whinging is more about opinions than facts, and that is a problem. Facts are what is needed. Of course facts are what are needed but then what is a fact. Some believe that people who lived thousands of years ago are Prophets/Son of God/Messengers etc and consider these views as facts with no 'other fact' allowed to penetrate their shield of belief. Facts are disputed time and again and neither you nor I have all the facts. All we can do is exchange opinion on what facts we have and accept. Which brings me in a circular sort of way back to discussion (whingeing if you like) which helps to form and change opinion and challenge 'facts'. You continue to deviate all over the place for no other reason than for arguments sake. Whinging accomplishes nothing, it just lets people moan about things they don't like, which is a waste of time. Around 45 years ago, I was inconvenienced by something that interfered with an action I did a number of times a week. It annoyed me for a few days, then it became clear in my mind for the first time, and I rationalised that if I could do something about it, I should, if there was nothing I could do about it then I should just accept, put it on a 'mental' shelf in case it became something I should do something about. And left it there. The system has left me with a lot of clear thinking and a much happier life. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 18, 2024 11:42:01 GMT
So what EXACT Right has been signed away? All The Best The absolute rights to life and freedom from torture. We cannot deport anyone to a place where their life or absolute right not to be tortured is a risk. However we can import people from whom the risk of ending a citizens life or torturing of said citizen is a serious risk as the rights of the group, as individuals, does not count. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 18, 2024 11:49:30 GMT
Of course facts are what are needed but then what is a fact. Some believe that people who lived thousands of years ago are Prophets/Son of God/Messengers etc and consider these views as facts with no 'other fact' allowed to penetrate their shield of belief. Facts are disputed time and again and neither you nor I have all the facts. All we can do is exchange opinion on what facts we have and accept. Which brings me in a circular sort of way back to discussion (whingeing if you like) which helps to form and change opinion and challenge 'facts'. You continue to deviate all over the place for no other reason than for arguments sake. Whinging accomplishes nothing, it just lets people moan about things they don't like, which is a waste of time. Around 45 years ago, I was inconvenienced by something that interfered with an action I did a number of times a week. It annoyed me for a few days, then it became clear in my mind for the first time, and I rationalised that if I could do something about it, I should, if there was nothing I could do about it then I should just accept, put it on a 'mental' shelf in case it became something I should do something about. And left it there. The system has left me with a lot of clear thinking and a much happier life. No deviation just addressing your specific points. Again I say no time is wasted as it may accomplish much by way of others that is unknown. Democracy is not just one vote at one time it is a process of discussion and information exchange which of course you can call whingeing and the freedom to do this is part of the ECHR, whereby the freedom to disseminate views and information to others is only limited by law. May your life continue to be happy as well as the lives of all who come after. Which of course is precisely why one whinges. |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 18, 2024 12:18:15 GMT
So what EXACT Right has been signed away? All The Best
Well, if you're on a housing list then good luck because you'll now be pushed further down the list.
So say goodbye to your rights.
If you're on an NHS waiting list then good luck because you'll now be pushed further down the list.
So say goodbye to your rights there too.
If you're trying to get your kids into a good school then good luck because you'll now be pushed further down the list.
So say goodbye to your rights yet again.
Let me try this in simple terms. The linked to article is behind a paywall, and sign-up - not doing either thanks. So you need to quote EXACT passages that show what SPECIFIC Rights we have now lost; and so far you haven't managed one. So far you've offered your speculation based on a right-wing tabloid's dog-whistle interpretation of something that has not even been finalised yet. You have not demonstrated one single right that has been lost, or will be lost. All The Best |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 18, 2024 12:19:59 GMT
So what EXACT Right has been signed away? All The Best We cannot deport anyone to a place where their life or absolute right not to be tortured is a risk. However we can import people from whom the risk of ending a citizens life or torturing of said citizen is a serious risk as the rights of the group, as individuals, does not count. How have I lost that right? I may have lost it had the Liz Truss Lunatic Fringe of the Tories had their way and withdrew from ECHR. All The Best |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Jul 18, 2024 12:36:55 GMT
Well, if you're on a housing list then good luck because you'll now be pushed further down the list.
So say goodbye to your rights.
If you're on an NHS waiting list then good luck because you'll now be pushed further down the list.
So say goodbye to your rights there too.
If you're trying to get your kids into a good school then good luck because you'll now be pushed further down the list.
So say goodbye to your rights yet again.
Let me try this in simple terms. The linked to article is behind a paywall, and sign-up - not doing either thanks. So you need to quote EXACT passages that show what SPECIFIC Rights we have now lost; and so far you haven't managed one. So far you've offered your speculation based on a right-wing tabloid's dog-whistle interpretation of something that has not even been finalised yet. You have not demonstrated one single right that has been lost, or will be lost. All The Best Ah, so you're going down the dogmatic line where every action brings only the stated aim and never any unintended consequences. And where there is never a subtext beneath that stated aim. Even though decades of experience tells us that that's not how politics works, Nulla. Do you really doubt that Starmer's deal will entail us taking a “Share” of the EU's unnecessary immigration, when we have no moral duty to do any such thing? And do you really claim that unnecessary immigration has no negative effect on the rights of the existing population? |
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Post by see2 on Jul 18, 2024 13:56:50 GMT
You continue to deviate all over the place for no other reason than for arguments sake. Whinging accomplishes nothing, it just lets people moan about things they don't like, which is a waste of time. Around 45 years ago, I was inconvenienced by something that interfered with an action I did a number of times a week. It annoyed me for a few days, then it became clear in my mind for the first time, and I rationalised that if I could do something about it, I should, if there was nothing I could do about it then I should just accept, put it on a 'mental' shelf in case it became something I should do something about. And left it there. The system has left me with a lot of clear thinking and a much happier life. No deviation just addressing your specific points. Again I say no time is wasted as it may accomplish much by way of others that is unknown. Democracy is not just one vote at one time it is a process of discussion and information exchange which of course you can call whingeing and the freedom to do this is part of the ECHR, whereby the freedom to disseminate views and information to others is only limited by law. May your life continue to be happy as well as the lives of all who come after. Which of course is precisely why one whinges. No, you don't address my points you post nonsense variably imagined deviating thoughts, that are just your hideaway opinions.. |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 18, 2024 14:43:40 GMT
The absolute rights to life and freedom from torture. We cannot deport anyone to a place where their life or absolute right not to be tortured is a risk. However we can import people from whom the risk of ending a citizens life or torturing of said citizen is a serious risk as the rights of the group, as individuals, does not count. How have I lost that right? I may have lost it had the Liz Truss Lunatic Fringe of the Tories had their way and withdrew from ECHR. All The Best No the right is absolute, there is no prevarication anything the government does or does not reasonably do that leads to a higher risk of that happening then they are taking away that right from you. That is clear as all judgements not to send people back are based on a risk of that happening should one be sent back. A risk is a risk is a risk, there is no quantifying it as far as I am aware. Not controlling borders adequately, when they have the means to do just that, increases risk for every individual in the country as those coming in are unknown quantities and in fact on some occasions known dangerous criminals. |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 18, 2024 14:47:43 GMT
Let me try this in simple terms. The linked to article is behind a paywall, and sign-up - not doing either thanks. So you need to quote EXACT passages that show what SPECIFIC Rights we have now lost; and so far you haven't managed one. So far you've offered your speculation based on a right-wing tabloid's dog-whistle interpretation of something that has not even been finalised yet. You have not demonstrated one single right that has been lost, or will be lost. All The Best And where there is never a subtext beneath that stated aim. Even though decades of experience tells us that that's not how politics works, Nulla. Do you really doubt that Starmer's deal will entail us taking a “Share” of the EU's unnecessary immigration, when we have no moral duty to do any such thing? And do you really claim that unnecessary immigration has no negative effect on the rights of the existing population? Not at all. But so far you've not even got a stated Policy for which we could hypothesise outcomes. ALL immigration to the UK should be stopped IMO. IMO there is no such thing as "necessary immigration" - just greedy companies trying to outsource staff training to other, cheaper, countries who often have way lower standards than ours. The country is over-populated, and dangerously low on drinking water, food, and energy security. All The Best |
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Post by ProVeritas on Jul 18, 2024 14:48:57 GMT
How have I lost that right? I may have lost it had the Liz Truss Lunatic Fringe of the Tories had their way and withdrew from ECHR. All The Best No the right is absolute, there is no prevarication anything the government does or does not reasonably do that leads to a higher risk of that happening then they are taking away that right from you. That is clear as all judgements not to send people back are based on a risk of that happening should one be sent back. A risk is a risk is a risk, there is no quantifying it as far as I am aware. Not controlling borders adequately, when they have the means to do just that, increases risk for every individual in the country as those coming in are unknown quantities and in fact on some occasions known dangerous criminals. So you are admitting I have NOT lost any rights. Got it. All The Best |
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Post by sandypine on Jul 18, 2024 14:52:17 GMT
No deviation just addressing your specific points. Again I say no time is wasted as it may accomplish much by way of others that is unknown. Democracy is not just one vote at one time it is a process of discussion and information exchange which of course you can call whingeing and the freedom to do this is part of the ECHR, whereby the freedom to disseminate views and information to others is only limited by law. May your life continue to be happy as well as the lives of all who come after. Which of course is precisely why one whinges. No, you don't address my points you post nonsense variably imagined deviating thoughts, that are just your hideaway opinions.. I addressed exactly your statement we need facts when in truth a 'fact' is often cloaked in opinion. Examples of such would be the BNP are a far right party, the EU is a Union of like minded countries for mutual benefit and Rishi Sunak was a Tory PM. |
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