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Post by jonksy on May 14, 2024 22:23:38 GMT
SNAT's independence dreams ripped apart as migrant poll delivers blow to ‘Scexit'
Scotland's independence dreams have been left in tatters as new research puts a hole in claims they are letting in more migrants than other parts of the UK.
The nationalist party have based a number of their Scexit prospectuses on statements which indicate that Scotland is more welcoming to immigration than those south of the border.
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Post by bancroft on May 15, 2024 9:41:56 GMT
And now we see their true colours once they start to get immigration levels close to England's ratio they react the same, whether it is Eire or Scotland.
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Post by Red Rackham on May 15, 2024 16:49:27 GMT
Goes to show, the SNP do not represent the Scottish people, they represent a small clique of extreme left wing pro EU supporting English hating nationalists. To be honest it's not so much that the SNP are pro EU, the SNP are, and always have been, very anti English and they will support any like minded organisation, group, union or country. The SNP's reason for existing, their entire raison dêtre is to hate the English.
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Post by borchester on May 15, 2024 21:55:21 GMT
I am not so sure.
I have spoken to a few Scottish Nationalists and most of them regard the SNP as much a bunch of looney tunes as we do. However, they are Scottish looney tunes and as such the Nats will endure them, much as we Brexiters thought that many of our fellow Brexiters were showers of shit, but endurable because they were British showers of shit
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Post by happyjack on May 15, 2024 23:07:06 GMT
I understand why it would be easy to think of all Scottish Nationalists as contemptible anti-English bigots based upon what we see on here, but please don’t think that those who spew their extremist twisted views on this cyber channel are representative of all independence supporters, or even of all Scot Nats, because that is not the case. Sure, almost all independence supporters have a seriously flawed understanding of the constitutional arrangements which causes them to feel a sense of unwarranted national grievance and makes them easy prey to the grievance mongering indy propagandists, and sure, very few of them have an ounce of financial acumen rendering them susceptible to the snake oil economic prospectus peddled by the nationalist movement, and, of course, many up here, just as everywhere else, are struggling to carve out a decent life for themselves and wrongly feel that things can’t get any worse under independence so why not give it a try, but they are nothing like the embarrassing shower of rancid racists who regularly pop up on here. Think of Brexit and the band of decent, financially stretched, but gullible types who got so easily sucked in by the Brexit snake oil salesmen in 2016 and how they would have reacted had Remain prevailed and you should get a sense of what is going on up here. Scottish independence is, to Scotland, what Brexit was to England, motivated by the same concerns, vulnerabilities and prejudices but with the potential for much more damaging consequences than Brexit could ever deliver if it ever comes to pass.
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Post by Vinny on May 16, 2024 5:26:03 GMT
Brexit was the culmination of the Maastricht rebellion and decades of the EU passing up the chance to reform.
David Cameron promised a referendum on a "reformed" EU and failed to achieve reform.
Hardly the same thing.
Powers have gone from elected MPs to unelected Commissioners for decades.
Scexit is about hatred of the English.
One million Scots helped get the UK independence vote over the line. And it was Maastricht rebellion stuff, democracy, not racism which won it.
Scexit is based on casual racism against the English, pretending that everything wrong in Scotland is the fault of the English (not mentioning the extensive tax subsidies the English give Scotland).
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Post by happyjack on May 16, 2024 6:34:00 GMT
Brexit was based upon resentment of other nations (Germany and France) and a larger political-economic entity (the EU) for restricting our self-determination, for seemingly being able to dictate to us, for diminishing our national identity and our perceived standing in the world, and for everything and anything that we were unhappy about in our lives.
Scexit is based upon resentment of another nation (England) and a larger political-economic entity (the UK) for restricting our self-determination, for seemingly being able to dictate to us, for diminishing our national identity and our perceived standing in the world, and for everything and anything that we are unhappy about in our lives.
The rest (including what you say above) is just an attempt to dress up those corrosive attitudes and motivations to try to make them appear a bit more credible and sophisticated - but underpinning it all in both cases is/was damaging nationalistic hubris and intolerance of others.
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Post by bancroft on May 16, 2024 10:10:18 GMT
The EU were verging on cresting a super state using our armed forces with little say elsewhere and we were paying the second highest fee to belong with a huge trade deficit to them and of that was not bad enough we had a huge amount of European criminals coming here.
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Post by happyjack on May 16, 2024 10:18:32 GMT
The EU were verging on cresting a super state using our armed forces with little say elsewhere and we were paying the second highest fee to belong with a huge trade deficit to them and of that was not bad enough we had a huge amount of European criminals coming here. Yep, and I am sure that other Brexiteers can come up with other versions of that to dress up their true motivations - and there will be all sorts of ScotNat versions of that to justify Scexit out there too - but the underlying motivation for Brexiters and Scexiters alike is/was as I describe above. That said, the arguments for and against Brexit were not particularly clear cut and the decision was therefore a lot more nuanced than with Scexit where there was and is no credible argument of any significant level of importance for voting YES.
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Post by Bentley on May 16, 2024 15:57:33 GMT
Brexit was based upon resentment of other nations (Germany and France) and a larger political-economic entity (the EU) for restricting our self-determination, for seemingly being able to dictate to us, for diminishing our national identity and our perceived standing in the world, and for everything and anything that we were unhappy about in our lives. Do you seriously think that the man ( or woman) on the street cared about ‘ self determination’ or ‘ perceived standing the world ‘ ? Really ? Maybe they saw their towns and high streets become unrecognisable and their wages / job security/ working conditions eroded by EU migrants .
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Post by happyjack on May 16, 2024 23:13:30 GMT
Yes, I do. Sure, they may not use those terms or necessarily grasp what they mean, but in both the Brexit and Scexit scenarios, those advocating change pressed the patriotic/quasi-racist buttons of the politically inert and disinterested and whipped them into action by telling them that Johnny Foreigner or Tommy English was controlling their ‘country’ and deciding what we can and cannot do, that our ‘country’ and our interests were being sidelined by being part of a larger entity, that all of our problems stemmed from this (including immigration/emigration), and that if we could only take back control then everything would be ticketyboo.
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Post by Bentley on May 16, 2024 23:20:41 GMT
Yes, I do. Sure, they may not use those terms or necessarily grasp what they mean, but in both the Brexit and Scexit scenarios, those advocating change pressed the patriotic/quasi-racist buttons of the politically inert and disinterested and whipped them into action by telling them that Johnny Foreigner or Tommy English was controlling their ‘country’ and deciding what we can and cannot do, that our ‘country’ and our interests were being sidelined by being part of a larger entity, that all of our problems stemmed from this (including immigration), and that if we could only take back control then everything would be ticketyboo. Nothing racist about not wanting your towns to be taken over by alien cultures or your wages ( and job prospects ) being eroded by EU migrants . Scexit it was never about that . I think you are conflating two different mindsets and ambitions .
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Post by happyjack on May 16, 2024 23:59:49 GMT
You are right, Scexit is not about that. Scexiters have their own particular bag of grievances and prejudices, germane to the Scottish perspective rather than the (largely) English perspective.. Brexit and Scexit are situationally different (obviously) but the attitudes, motivations, and behaviours of the crucial mass of Brexiters and Scexiters are very similar, as outlined above.
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Post by morayloon on May 17, 2024 0:28:11 GMT
I understand why it would be easy to think of all Scottish Nationalists as contemptible anti-English bigots based upon what we see on here, but please don’t think that those who spew their extremist twisted views on this cyber channel are representative of all independence supporters, or even of all Scot Nats, because that is not the case. Sure, almost all independence supporters have a seriously flawed understanding of the constitutional arrangements which causes them to feel a sense of unwarranted national grievance and makes them easy prey to the grievance mongering indy propagandists, and sure, very few of them have an ounce of financial acumen rendering them susceptible to the snake oil economic prospectus peddled by the nationalist movement, and, of course, many up here, just as everywhere else, are struggling to carve out a decent life for themselves and wrongly feel that things can’t get any worse under independence so why not give it a try, but they are nothing like the embarrassing shower of rancid racists who regularly pop up on here. Think of Brexit and the band of decent, financially stretched, but gullible types who got so easily sucked in by the Brexit snake oil salesmen in 2016 and how they would have reacted had Remain prevailed and you should get a sense of what is going on up here. Scottish independence is, to Scotland, what Brexit was to England, motivated by the same concerns, vulnerabilities and prejudices but with the potential for much more damaging consequences than Brexit could ever deliver if it ever comes to pass. The usual crap from the self proclaimed neutral. But, given the bile that he comes out with, playing to the anti-Scots on this forum, shows him up for what he is - an extremist, ultra Unionist. I doubt that he has spent a day in Scotland.
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Post by happyjack on May 17, 2024 0:44:57 GMT
Just how thick are you? I keep telling you that I am not neutral on Scottish independence but strongly opposed to it, but that my opposition in based upon economic and financial reasons only and that I can be won over if only you or any other Indy supporter could present a credible and robust economic case for going it alone; something which not one of you is able to do.
And I am just telling it as it is and if that shows you up for what you are and embarrasses you in front of others on here then so be it. I owe you no allegiance simply because we were both born in the same region of the UK so don’t expect any of that pathetic nonsense from me.
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