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Post by sandypine on May 14, 2024 18:49:53 GMT
You may but the circumstances then were totally different to the circumstance PV is trying to present as an option in the here and now. I have conceded the circumstance I have described is not very likely. That is not my concern. My concern is: is the circumstance I have described an accurate representation of the law as it stands. That is a resounding Yes, it is. If, and stress IF, the Monarch chooses to withhold Royal Assent there is NO LEGAL redress available to either Parliament or the People. That necessarily means that, no matter how it has been disguised and how many people that disguise has fooled (a LOT), the Monarch is Sovereign. The people are not Sovereign; so we are NOT a Democracy. Parliament is not Sovereign; so we are not even a watered-down Representative Democracy. The Monarch IS Sovereign, we are therefore a Monarchy. Which, funny enough, is what just about every credible source out there calls us - a Constitutional MONARCHY. No one has so far presented any evidence at all that the legal position I have described is anything other than the truth. All The Best I have not argued that the legal position you present is anything other than what you say. My point, again, is that a democracy is an elusive level of consensus as regards all parties and it does not matter what one calls it. In effect it is democratic because in the last analysis the people have the power which is wielded through the institutions that they, the people, accept as having the right to wield that power. If they try to go beyond that consensual remit then they are brought back into line, which is largely why they do not. The Monarch may be sovereign but he knows his place.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2024 19:59:58 GMT
You've missed something. The German Army notified the German government that in the eventuality of civil war, it wasn't strong enough to contain the SA and the Red Front Fighters. A young unemployed man during the great depression either joined the SA, or the Red Front. There were two growing paramilitaries and there were not just fights between them, but killings were occurring. In the face of civil war, the German authorities made a terrible mistake. It was actually the German government in the form of chancellor Schleicher - the last chancellor before Hitler - who was also a general in the army who told Hindenburg that the German army could not suppress civil war, which was all part of his incessant scheming to include the Nazis somehow and avoid a right wing coup in which he himself were not leading. He later did an about turn and claimed that the army could control the situation without any evidence supporting such a change of mind. Hindenburg was thus unconvinced. Yes it was the 400,000 SA men, not to mention other paramilitaries, that the conservative right feared as I already said, backed by a third of the people, which is the only reason the conservatives felt they had to bring him onside, yet retain control themselves. They succeeded in the former by giving Hitler the chancellorship but utterly failed in the latter. Hitler quickly took control right from the very start. And yes there was constant street fights between communists and Nazis involving murders, the conservatives sought to bring the Nazis on board to quell this whilst retaining control themselves. It was a terrible mistake, but one made by a conservative clique who themselves sought the overthrow of democracy. Which is partly why they utterly failed to seek the support of the strongest remaining pro-democracy party, the Social Democrats. Their grave mistake was utterly inherent to their own authoritarian agenda.
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Post by dodgydave on May 15, 2024 1:40:57 GMT
Again, you keep pointing to a problem, yet offer so solution. Capitalism is regulated, so talking about it like it isn't is just pointless. What would you replace it with? Your water example is just dumb. On literally every metric England's water supply has improved. We invest more than anybody else in Europe (every year since privitisation). Leaks are down a quarter. Drinking water quality has improved... and we outperform both Scotland and Wales... were it is nationalised. You will of course mention the sewer problems. Tell us how re-nationalisation is going to magic the £600b needed to solve the sewer problem, and tell us how you will physically ever manage to get the work done considering the sheer scale of the problem? You literally highlighted the problem without realising. "More people now pay a greater percentage of their income on servicing utility bills than ever before." Here is an idea for you, British Rail, British Telecom, Electric Board, Gas Board, Water Board were all shite. Do you think that is because the bill price was political and not a reflection of the cost of service? Do think investment was so low because the utilities were way way down on the government's priorities and because there is no votes in them? If there was an easy solution to the many problems of Capitalism most countries would have adopted them by now. The real issue is that most countries aren't even looking for solutions, because they refuse to acknowledge the problems. They do so because once MPs leave office they want those cushy jobs at that top-end of the capitalist ladder, so don't want to rock the boat. Pointing out that how nationalised utilities were run 40 years ago was not great is no indication that how they are run under privatisation is much better,; in fact for nearly everyone in the lower 2 quintiles it is much worse. 90% of all the problems with Capitalism are to do with wealth distribution and the ever increasing wealth-gap. All The Best It is interesting that you talk about the wealth-gap and not incomes, which suggest you are falling for ideological clap-trap. Wealth is irrelevant, wealth is a paper figure. INCOME is what matters. Having a decent minimum wage, and scrapping all this agency / zero hours contracts / gig economy bullshit and making companies offer FULL-TIME CONTRACTS is what matters. You talk like capitalism is some kind of rigged system. There is nothing to stop a group of people getting together and forming a company where they distribute the profits equally. Most people won't though because (1) they don't want to invest their own money (2) they don't want the risk of the company failing (3) they don't want to work 70+ hours week (4) they don't want the stress. That is all capitalism is, you either take the risk and become an employer / self-employed / investor, or you play it safe and sell your labour as an employee. You cannot play it safe and risk nothing then expect to an equal share of the profits lol. If you are going to insist you should, then logically you should accept you would be liable for any losses too.
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Post by ProVeritas on May 15, 2024 8:33:27 GMT
I have conceded the circumstance I have described is not very likely. That is not my concern. My concern is: is the circumstance I have described an accurate representation of the law as it stands. That is a resounding Yes, it is. If, and stress IF, the Monarch chooses to withhold Royal Assent there is NO LEGAL redress available to either Parliament or the People. That necessarily means that, no matter how it has been disguised and how many people that disguise has fooled (a LOT), the Monarch is Sovereign. The people are not Sovereign; so we are NOT a Democracy. Parliament is not Sovereign; so we are not even a watered-down Representative Democracy. The Monarch IS Sovereign, we are therefore a Monarchy. Which, funny enough, is what just about every credible source out there calls us - a Constitutional MONARCHY. No one has so far presented any evidence at all that the legal position I have described is anything other than the truth. All The Best I have not argued that the legal position you present is anything other than what you say. My point, again, is that a democracy is an elusive level of consensus as regards all parties and it does not matter what one calls it. In effect it is democratic because in the last analysis the people have the power which is wielded through the institutions that they, the people, accept as having the right to wield that power. If they try to go beyond that consensual remit then they are brought back into line, which is largely why they do not. The Monarch may be sovereign but he knows his place. If our Democracy is built upon an "elusive form of consensus" rather than Law then we are not really a democracy, are we? We are, at best, a Monarchy pretending to be a Democracy. When push comes to shove the ONLY thing that will matter in the first instance is "what is legal". After that we may well have an as yet undefined "constitutional crisis", which may come to some elusive consensus of a solution. But every constitutional crisis we have had in the past so far has NOT resolved the issue of Royal Assent (because they were never supposed to do so); so why would we assume that a new constitutional crisis would now? There is ONLY one way to change this and make that change lasting, have a formal, written, protected in law, genuinely democratic, constitution; and make it clear from the get go that if the Monarch refuses to grant Royal Assent to that Constitution we WILL abolish the Monarchy and they will lose all the privileges and public purse handouts that come with that. All The Best
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Post by Orac on May 15, 2024 11:04:21 GMT
I have not argued that the legal position you present is anything other than what you say. My point, again, is that a democracy is an elusive level of consensus as regards all parties and it does not matter what one calls it. In effect it is democratic because in the last analysis the people have the power which is wielded through the institutions that they, the people, accept as having the right to wield that power. If they try to go beyond that consensual remit then they are brought back into line, which is largely why they do not. The Monarch may be sovereign but he knows his place. If our Democracy is built upon an "elusive form of consensus" rather than Law then we are not really a democracy, are we? I would put it the other way around - if our democracy is only built on law, then we aren't really a democracy. When 'push comes to shove' we can assume normal law breaks down
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Post by ProVeritas on May 15, 2024 12:08:16 GMT
If our Democracy is built upon an "elusive form of consensus" rather than Law then we are not really a democracy, are we? I would put it the other way around - if our democracy is only built on law, then we aren't really a democracy. When 'push comes to shove' we can assume normal law breaks down If the Law - the ONLY things thing that guides both the Police and Judiciary - does not protect and enshrine Democracy what does? The current Tory Regime has gerrymandered the Constituency Boundaries, and disenfranchised - by their own reckoning - up to 8 million voters. So "the government of the day" can't be said to protect Democracy. The current Government was put into power by the people, and those same people sat idly by and did exactly nothing while all this was going on. So the people can't be said to protect democracy. Of course this is made almost impossible by Manifesto Pledges no being legally binding, and Government routinely enacting legislation that they made no mention of in their manifestos. So something has to happen there as well, otherwise there is no real informed decision to be made about who to vote for because their manifestos are effectively meaningless. All The Best
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Post by Orac on May 15, 2024 12:58:42 GMT
I would put it the other way around - if our democracy is only built on law, then we aren't really a democracy. When 'push comes to shove' we can assume normal law breaks down If the Law - the ONLY things thing that guides both the Police and Judiciary - does not protect and enshrine Democracy what does? This sort of view is mostly a fantasy. The judiciary independently interpret the law - and so can effectively revoke law or introduce new laws. The binding agent and foundation for democracy comes from the culture people have between them - ie 'good neighborliness' For instance - I may disagree with what you say politically, but i'm not, going to contact your boss and try to get you fired for you views, because doing so is counter-democratic and leads to a shithole. It's all about values.
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Post by sandypine on May 15, 2024 13:59:53 GMT
I have not argued that the legal position you present is anything other than what you say. My point, again, is that a democracy is an elusive level of consensus as regards all parties and it does not matter what one calls it. In effect it is democratic because in the last analysis the people have the power which is wielded through the institutions that they, the people, accept as having the right to wield that power. If they try to go beyond that consensual remit then they are brought back into line, which is largely why they do not. The Monarch may be sovereign but he knows his place. If our Democracy is built upon an "elusive form of consensus" rather than Law then we are not really a democracy, are we? We are, at best, a Monarchy pretending to be a Democracy. When push comes to shove the ONLY thing that will matter in the first instance is "what is legal". After that we may well have an as yet undefined "constitutional crisis", which may come to some elusive consensus of a solution. But every constitutional crisis we have had in the past so far has NOT resolved the issue of Royal Assent (because they were never supposed to do so); so why would we assume that a new constitutional crisis would now? There is ONLY one way to change this and make that change lasting, have a formal, written, protected in law, genuinely democratic, constitution; and make it clear from the get go that if the Monarch refuses to grant Royal Assent to that Constitution we WILL abolish the Monarchy and they will lose all the privileges and public purse handouts that come with that. All The Best No the law is built on the democracy which is that consensus. When push comes to shove all that matters is what will/is likely to happen beyond the consensual laws. We have not resolved the Royal Assent issue as it has not needed resolving as it currently works. If it did not we may indeed go to a formal written Constitution but I maintain that our democracy, with all its flaws and inconsistencies is more responsive to the people than any written Constitution that can be seen today. That is largely because the power comes from the people and not from the written Constitution which can, and often is used to prevent the people from having any meaningful power. The EU is a very good example of this Constitutionally restrictive democracy.
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Post by ProVeritas on May 15, 2024 15:02:14 GMT
If the Law - the ONLY things thing that guides both the Police and Judiciary - does not protect and enshrine Democracy what does? This sort of view is mostly a fantasy. The judiciary independently interpret the law - and so can effectively revoke law or introduce new laws. The Judiciary can NOT make new laws, , that requires an act of parliament. www.parliament.uk/business/lords/work-of-the-house-of-lords/making-laws/The Law Commission (an arm of Government) can propose laws to be repealed, but it takes an act of parliament to actually do so; the judiciary can not do so. In short, in both cases you are factually wrong; consistent though. All The Best
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Post by ProVeritas on May 15, 2024 15:13:21 GMT
If our Democracy is built upon an "elusive form of consensus" rather than Law then we are not really a democracy, are we? We are, at best, a Monarchy pretending to be a Democracy. When push comes to shove the ONLY thing that will matter in the first instance is "what is legal". After that we may well have an as yet undefined "constitutional crisis", which may come to some elusive consensus of a solution. But every constitutional crisis we have had in the past so far has NOT resolved the issue of Royal Assent (because they were never supposed to do so); so why would we assume that a new constitutional crisis would now? There is ONLY one way to change this and make that change lasting, have a formal, written, protected in law, genuinely democratic, constitution; and make it clear from the get go that if the Monarch refuses to grant Royal Assent to that Constitution we WILL abolish the Monarchy and they will lose all the privileges and public purse handouts that come with that. All The Best No the law is built on the democracy which is that consensus. When push comes to shove all that matters is what will/is likely to happen beyond the consensual laws. We have not resolved the Royal Assent issue as it has not needed resolving as it currently works. If it did not we may indeed go to a formal written Constitution but I maintain that our democracy, with all its flaws and inconsistencies is more responsive to the people than any written Constitution that can be seen today. That is largely because the power comes from the people and not from the written Constitution which can, and often is used to prevent the people from having any meaningful power. The EU is a very good example of this Constitutionally restrictive democracy. The Law is NOT consensual. If you are speeding you don't have to consent to being ticketed - it just happens. In fact not only do you not need to consent to be subject to the law, you don't even need to be aware of the law (ignorance of the law is no defence) to be subject to it; and you clearly can not consent to something you are not aware of. All The Best
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Post by Orac on May 15, 2024 15:18:09 GMT
This sort of view is mostly a fantasy. The judiciary independently interpret the law - and so can effectively revoke law or introduce new laws. The Judiciary can NOT make new laws, , that requires an act of parliament. www.parliament.uk/business/lords/work-of-the-house-of-lords/making-laws/The Law Commission (an arm of Government) can propose laws to be repealed, but it takes an act of parliament to actually do so; the judiciary can not do so. In short, in both cases you are factually wrong; consistent though. All The Best You need to read slight more carefully - the word effectively
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Post by ProVeritas on May 15, 2024 15:24:33 GMT
The Judiciary can NOT make new laws, , that requires an act of parliament. www.parliament.uk/business/lords/work-of-the-house-of-lords/making-laws/The Law Commission (an arm of Government) can propose laws to be repealed, but it takes an act of parliament to actually do so; the judiciary can not do so. In short, in both cases you are factually wrong; consistent though. All The Best You need to read slight more carefully - the word effectivelyYou need to read more carefully, the operative word is NOT " effectively" is IS " actually". As in "actually" you are wrong. The Judiciary can NOT make new laws - that requires an Act Of Parliament. The Judiciary can NOT repeal laws - that requires an Act Of Parliament. The Judiciary can NOT pass Acts Of Parliament. All The Best
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Post by Orac on May 15, 2024 15:30:21 GMT
You need to read slight more carefully - the word effectivelyYou need to read more carefully, the operative word is NOT " effectively" is IS " actually". No. The word i used is effectively. You are reading my posts, not writing them.
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Post by sandypine on May 15, 2024 15:57:42 GMT
No the law is built on the democracy which is that consensus. When push comes to shove all that matters is what will/is likely to happen beyond the consensual laws. We have not resolved the Royal Assent issue as it has not needed resolving as it currently works. If it did not we may indeed go to a formal written Constitution but I maintain that our democracy, with all its flaws and inconsistencies is more responsive to the people than any written Constitution that can be seen today. That is largely because the power comes from the people and not from the written Constitution which can, and often is used to prevent the people from having any meaningful power. The EU is a very good example of this Constitutionally restrictive democracy. The Law is NOT consensual. If you are speeding you don't have to consent to being ticketed - it just happens. In fact not only do you not need to consent to be subject to the law, you don't even need to be aware of the law (ignorance of the law is no defence) to be subject to it; and you clearly can not consent to something you are not aware of. All The Best Of course the law is consensual as it is the result of the democratic process. I may not like all the laws but I recognise that they are derived through the democratic process with all its flaws and inconsistencies. Of course you can consent to that which you are not aware of if you consent to the process that puts it there. I may consent to the purchase of a gift for an ill colleague. I may not be aware of what it is or where it resides but I consented to the process.
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Post by Equivocal on May 15, 2024 16:01:52 GMT
You need to read more carefully, the operative word is NOT " effectively" is IS " actually". No. The word i used is effectively. You are reading my posts, not writing them. Not just effectively, but actually.
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