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Post by Orac on May 14, 2024 7:35:14 GMT
You are engaging in pointless pedantry now - take a look at my last line.
No part of my point relies on it being exclusively Hindenburg. You are reduced to silliness Hitler even with his cobbled together coalition still couldn't win a majority therefore there was plenty of opposition.
The bottom line is that it was right-wing Conservatives that persuaded Hindenburg to allow Hitler to take control. Right-wing politicians made way for a fascist to take control. You again appear to have ignored my point to pursue this tedious offshoot about Hindenburg's role. I didn't say It was Hindenburg exclusively, that's an interpretation you are using to engage in pointless constructed pedantry My point was that, although Hitler didn't have the clear win, there is no logical reason why that couldn't have happened.
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Post by ProVeritas on May 14, 2024 11:24:22 GMT
Legally they have no other choice. Parliament could resign in protest, but as any incoming replacement Government must seek permission from the Monarch to form a government, the Monarch could - quite legally - refuse that permission also. Such a resignation would, allegedly, usher in a "constitutional crisis", but there is no legal route to resolving that crisis that does not first need to seek approval from the Monarch. Note: I am not talking about likelihoods here, I have no interest in "what is likely to happen", I am ONLY interested in what - quite legally - can happen. All The Best Of course you are not interested in the alternative There is no alternative to the legal position. The law is quite clear, the Monarch CAN refuse Royal Assent, and there is NOTHING Parliament can legally do to prevent or overturn that refusal. All The Best
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Post by see2 on May 14, 2024 11:30:22 GMT
see2 It shouldn't matter how ill-informed people are if the Democratic System has been designed from the ground up to protect the integrity Democratic Process and serve the wishes of the Majority of the People. Our Sham-Democracy was designed from the ground up to protect the status quo and serve the, already, corrupt establishment. @srb7677 The establishment will never, and has never, permitted a sufficiently rigorous teaching of either Politics or the Political Processes of this country to ensure the majority of people are properly informed on matters political. If they did so more people would realise we are NOT a Democracy. We are a Monarchy with an elected probouleutic chamber whose legislation must first clear the hurdle of the unaccountable House Of Lords, and then face the potential veto of the unelected and even more unaccountable Monarch. The Parliament Acts allow, in extremis, for the HoC to ignore the rulings of the HoL; it took 200 years for that to be implemented after the founding of Parliament. Maybe in another 200 years we will have caught up to the 20th Century and done away with the need for the Monarch to give their seal of approval. All The Best Basic question, what happens if the Monarch decides to withhold Royal Assent for a bill the HoC wishes to become law? I might have to go back to 1708 to find the answer to your 'IF'.
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Post by see2 on May 14, 2024 11:44:06 GMT
Hitler even with his cobbled together coalition still couldn't win a majority therefore there was plenty of opposition.
The bottom line is that it was right-wing Conservatives that persuaded Hindenburg to allow Hitler to take control. Right-wing politicians made way for a fascist to take control. You again appear to have ignored my point to pursue this tedious offshoot about Hindenburg's role. I didn't say It was Hindenburg exclusively, that's an interpretation you are using to engage in pointless constructed pedantry My point was that, although Hitler didn't have the clear win, there is no logical reason why that couldn't have happened. Please stop being silly. YOU indicated Hindenburg, not me. Now that reality has been pointed out to you, you change your tune. And yet you have the dishonesty and audacity to accuse me of "pointless constructed pedantry". There was nothing 'logical' about Hitler being given the OK to take power, it was a purely political choice made by politically right-wing individuals. And that is the point you keep hiding away from.
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Post by Orac on May 14, 2024 12:02:52 GMT
You again appear to have ignored my point to pursue this tedious offshoot about Hindenburg's role. I didn't say It was Hindenburg exclusively, that's an interpretation you are using to engage in pointless constructed pedantry My point was that, although Hitler didn't have the clear win, there is no logical reason why that couldn't have happened. Please stop being silly. YOU indicated Hindenburg, not me. Now that reality has been pointed out to you, you change your tune. And yet you have the dishonesty and audacity to accuse me of "pointless constructed pedantry". There was nothing 'logical' about Hitler being given the OK to take power, it was a purely political choice made by politically right-wing individuals. And that is the point you keep hiding away from. I didn't say it was Hindenburg exclusively, so you have just spent the last four posts pretending i did and therefore lying. My point was that, although Hitler didn't have the clear win, there is no logical reason why that couldn't have happened. So what next? Are you just going to lie again?
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2024 13:17:34 GMT
The Bill does not pass into law. All The Best So nothing else happens? Do the government, parliament and people sit on their hands and accept that decision. What do you think happens in reality? Say it was the Gay marriage bill that was not given Royal Assent what do you think would have happened? Would Stonewall have sat back and said well that is it then? It is a very important question as it is the next step in the democratic process. I think any monarch is loath to refuse royal assent on anything through fear of stoking political opposition to the monarchy itself that could eventually result in the institution losing support and ultimately falling. Part of the monarchy's popularity relies utterly upon the monarch being seen to be above politics. If for a moment the monarch refused to give royal assent, it immediately embroils itself in politics and risks losing support amongst people and politicians. It wont risk that so will keep rubber stamping all bills however poor. But if we assume for a moment that the monarch did refuse royal assent to any bill, in terms of immediate impact a lot would depend upon how contentious the bill is. If it were something so obviously flawed and wildly unpopular as the poll tax, refusal of assent in the short term might even have boosted public support for the monarchy, which would have appeared as a champion of the people against a grotesquely unfair imposition by an out of touch government. Nevertheless, in the longer term this would have damaged the monarchy by undermining trust in it from key parts of the establishment. And a dangerous precedent would have been set likely to result in constant calls from some of the public and media for all sorts of other bills to be refused. And once an unelected monarch starts to exercise such power, this is a potential hammer blow to what we have of a democracy, flawed as it already is. If the monarch were to refuse assent to any measure that is widely popular - especially if this is seen to be for self-interested reasons - the loss of support for the monarchy would be far more immediate. But for as long as it simply rubber stamps all bills coming before it, without comment and without exception, if it is a load of shit, the politicians who pushed it through will get the blame and not the monarch. This would cease to hold true if the monarch started to refuse assent for anything, and thus got itself embroiled in politics.
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Post by Deleted on May 14, 2024 14:01:00 GMT
It was the German aristocracy that gave the final OK for Hitler to take control. Hitler never won a clear democratic vote. Germany was already in an economic mess when the 1930s economic depression, that fell on top of Germany's economic mess (caused by reparation payments) that finally persuaded the aristocracy to make way for Hitler to take control. According to history the aristocracy thought they would be able to control Hitler in power. Hindenburg saw it as a way to provide a sop to revolutionary sentiment (ie to compromise). Hitler didn't have much time for the aristocracy, who he saw as corrupt and cowardly, and soon there was to way to slow things down. Germany didn't have a backstop. You can avoid the issue here by noting that Hitler didn't get the clear win, but there is nothing that logically prevents that happening. Basically, the political right in Germany was opposed to the Weimar democracy from the outset and hankered after some sort of authoritarian nationalist regime. Though they differed amongst themselves about exactly what they wanted. Some yearned for a restoration of the monarchy, others wanted to emulate the regime of Mussolini. Still others yearned for some sort of oligarchical regime. On the left the communists also were opposed to democracy. Only some of the centrist parties and the Social Democrats supported the Weimar regime. And many of the centrists veered sharply to the right in the economic crisis that beset Germany from 1929. In the 1930 elections the Nazis came from nowhere to become the second largest party behind only the Social Democrats who had nevertheless lost support. The communists also made gains. From this point on a majority of Reichstag seats were held by representatives who wanted to destroy democracy, which effectively ceased to function as such, the Reichstag being entirely bypassed by chancellors ruling by presidential decree. This required the support of President Hindenburg, himself a conservative who really wanted an authoritarian conservative regime. As the economic crisis deepened, support for extremist parties grew whilst the moderate ones more supportive of democracy lost votes. By 1932 the Nazis were the largest political party and the communists third largest. Democracy was no longer workable and some businessmen, many army leaders, and above all the landed aristocracy as well as top civil servants, were plotting various schemes for establishing a right wing authoritarian regime, all of them having the enthusiastic ear of Hindenburg himself. Many thought the Nazis vulgar and undesirable but they feared a party supported now by a third of the people and with 400,000 SA stormtroopers. They thought that any attempt to seize power might well be thwarted if opposed by the Nazis who could command the streets so some of them began to think of ways of harnessing Hitler and Nazi support without conceding control to him. For many months the conservatives tried to persuade Hitler to accept the vice chancellorship, with arch conservative favourite of Hindenburg - von Papen - as chancellor with the offer of a couple of other Nazi cabinet ministers. Hitler refused and insisted upon the chancellorship. So the conservatives began to try and think of ways of conceding that whilst retaining control themselves. The army and the aristocracy above all else - both having the ear of Hindenburg - became supportive of a Hitler chancellorship, imagining that if most other posts went to conservatives they could control Hitler. The main obstacle to this plan in the end was Hindenburg himself, who was personally contemptuous of Hitler, and referred to him with disdain as that "Bohemian corporal". He steadfastly refused to make Hitler chancellor for many weeks and in the end it was only the persuasive efforts of both von Papen - promised the vice-chancellorship by Hitler - and Hindenburg's own son who was won round, which resulted in Hindenburg conceding. Hitler thus became chancellor on January 30th 1933. But only two other cabinet posts went to Nazis, though this included interior minister in charge of the police. All other cabinet posts went to non-Nazi conservatives. The latter thought they were in control, which proved to be a disastrous under-estimation of Hitler. It is thus the case that conservative right wing elements - especially in the aristocracy and army - were responsible for levering Hitler into power, though this was felt necessary only because of his clear support from a third of the electorate, without which they would never have bothered with him. But they miscalculated their ability to control him. Instead he quickly ended up controlling them, which was never their intent.
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Post by see2 on May 14, 2024 14:43:30 GMT
Please stop being silly. YOU indicated Hindenburg, not me. Now that reality has been pointed out to you, you change your tune. And yet you have the dishonesty and audacity to accuse me of "pointless constructed pedantry". There was nothing 'logical' about Hitler being given the OK to take power, it was a purely political choice made by politically right-wing individuals. And that is the point you keep hiding away from. I didn't say it was Hindenburg exclusively, so you have just spent the last four posts pretending i did and therefore lying. My point was that, although Hitler didn't have the clear win, there is no logical reason why that couldn't have happened. So what next? Are you just going to lie again? You didn't say exclusively, but you did indicate that he did it. As you only mentioned Hindenburg I pointed out it was not just him, I filled the picture in so what the hell are you whinging about?? To which I clarified that it 'may be logical' for right-wing political individuals to open the path to power for a Fascist. But that is a political decision, bereft of any open logic. YOU OBVOIOUSLY HAVE THE NEED TO LIE AND TO INSINUATE not me I just clarify. So stop it. If you cannot be honest I suggest you move on.
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Post by see2 on May 14, 2024 14:52:55 GMT
Hindenburg saw it as a way to provide a sop to revolutionary sentiment (ie to compromise). Hitler didn't have much time for the aristocracy, who he saw as corrupt and cowardly, and soon there was to way to slow things down. Germany didn't have a backstop. You can avoid the issue here by noting that Hitler didn't get the clear win, but there is nothing that logically prevents that happening. Basically, the political right in Germany was opposed to the Weimar democracy from the outset and hankered after some sort of authoritarian nationalist regime. Though they differed amongst themselves about exactly what they wanted. Some yearned for a restoration of the monarchy, others wanted to emulate the regime of Mussolini. Still others yearned for some sort of oligarchical regime. On the left the communists also were opposed to democracy. Only some of the centrist parties and the Social Democrats supported the Weimar regime. And many of the centrists veered sharply to the right in the economic crisis that beset Germany from 1929. In the 1930 elections the Nazis came from nowhere to become the second largest party behind only the Social Democrats who had nevertheless lost support. The communists also made gains. From this point on a majority of Reichstag seats were held by representatives who wanted to destroy democracy, which effectively ceased to function as such, the Reichstag being entirely bypassed by chancellors ruling by presidential decree. This required the support of President Hindenburg, himself a conservative who really wanted an authoritarian conservative regime. As the economic crisis deepened, support for extremist parties grew whilst the moderate ones more supportive of democracy lost votes. By 1932 the Nazis were the largest political party and the communists third largest. Democracy was no longer workable and some businessmen, many army leaders, and above all the landed aristocracy as well as top civil servants, were plotting various schemes for establishing a right wing authoritarian regime, all of them having the enthusiastic ear of Hindenburg himself. Many thought the Nazis vulgar and undesirable but they feared a party supported now by a third of the people and with 400,000 SA stormtroopers. They thought that any attempt to seize power might well be thwarted if opposed by the Nazis who could command the streets so some of them began to think of ways of harnessing Hitler and Nazi support without conceding control to him. For many months the conservatives tried to persuade Hitler to accept the vice chancellorship, with arch conservative favourite of Hindenburg - von Papen - as chancellor with the offer of a couple of other Nazi cabinet ministers. Hitler refused and insisted upon the chancellorship. So the conservatives began to try and think of ways of conceding that whilst retaining control themselves. The army and the aristocracy above all else - both having the ear of Hindenburg - became supportive of a Hitler chancellorship, imagining that if most other posts went to conservatives they could control Hitler. The main obstacle to this plan in the end was Hindenburg himself, who was personally contemptuous of Hitler, and referred to him with disdain as that "Bohemian corporal". He steadfastly refused to make Hitler chancellor for many weeks and in the end it was only the persuasive efforts of both von Papen - promised the vice-chancellorship by Hitler - and Hindenburg's own son who was won round, which resulted in Hindenburg conceding. Hitler thus became chancellor on January 30th 1933. But only two other cabinet posts went to Nazis, though this included interior minister in charge of the police. All other cabinet posts went to non-Nazi conservatives. The latter thought they were in control, which proved to be a disastrous under-estimation of Hitler. It is thus the case that conservative right wing elements - especially in the aristocracy and army - were responsible for levering Hitler into power, though this was felt necessary only because of his clear support from a third of the electorate, without which they would never have bothered with him. But they miscalculated their ability to control him. Instead he quickly ended up controlling them, which was never their intent. Cheers, myself and others have been through this so often that I personally am not prepared to go through it all again.
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Post by Vinny on May 14, 2024 14:56:50 GMT
You've missed something. The German Army notified the German government that in the eventuality of civil war, it wasn't strong enough to contain the SA and the Red Front Fighters. A young unemployed man during the great depression either joined the SA, or the Red Front.
There were two growing paramilitaries and there were not just fights between them, but killings were occurring.
In the face of civil war, the German authorities made a terrible mistake.
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Post by sandypine on May 14, 2024 16:14:36 GMT
Of course you are not interested in the alternative There is no alternative to the legal position. The law is quite clear, the Monarch CAN refuse Royal Assent, and there is NOTHING Parliament can legally do to prevent or overturn that refusal. All The Best Legally of course there is not but as in all things there are always alternatives. The legal position for Charles 2 was that he was effectively God on earth and legally he could act the way he did. Legally he was right but in the end an alternative is what occurred and a new Constitution evolved. There is always an alternative beyond the end of the legal road, it is not a no through road, it just has no direction fingerposts.
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Post by sandypine on May 14, 2024 16:16:51 GMT
Basic question, what happens if the Monarch decides to withhold Royal Assent for a bill the HoC wishes to become law? I might have to go back to 1708 to find the answer to your 'IF'. You may but the circumstances then were totally different to the circumstance PV is trying to present as an option in the here and now.
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Post by ProVeritas on May 14, 2024 16:56:22 GMT
I might have to go back to 1708 to find the answer to your 'IF'. You may but the circumstances then were totally different to the circumstance PV is trying to present as an option in the here and now. I have conceded the circumstance I have described is not very likely. That is not my concern. My concern is: is the circumstance I have described an accurate representation of the law as it stands. That is a resounding Yes, it is. If, and stress IF, the Monarch chooses to withhold Royal Assent there is NO LEGAL redress available to either Parliament or the People. That necessarily means that, no matter how it has been disguised and how many people that disguise has fooled (a LOT), the Monarch is Sovereign. The people are not Sovereign; so we are NOT a Democracy. Parliament is not Sovereign; so we are not even a watered-down Representative Democracy. The Monarch IS Sovereign, we are therefore a Monarchy. Which, funny enough, is what just about every credible source out there calls us - a Constitutional MONARCHY. No one has so far presented any evidence at all that the legal position I have described is anything other than the truth. All The Best
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Post by Orac on May 14, 2024 17:04:02 GMT
I didn't say it was Hindenburg exclusively, so you have just spent the last four posts pretending i did and therefore lying. My point was that, although Hitler didn't have the clear win, there is no logical reason why that couldn't have happened. So what next? Are you just going to lie again? You didn't say exclusively, but you did indicate that he did it. As you only mentioned Hindenburg I pointed out it was not just him, I filled the picture in so what the hell are you whinging about?? To which I clarified that it 'may be logical' for right-wing political individuals to open the path to power for a Fascist. But that is a political decision, bereft of any open logic. Your intervention started "I suggest you look up the history" and you then proceeded to justify the correction by reading in to what I wrote, something that was not actually there. (as you note above) You then make a further three 'corrective' posts, all maintaining that I said something that wasn't actually in the post. Of course, the further assumption is that any of this Hindenburg guffery has any real salience to my point at all - which it doesn't So, here it is again - My point was that, although Hitler didn't have the clear win, there is no logical reason why that couldn't have happened.
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Post by Orac on May 14, 2024 17:11:12 GMT
Hindenburg saw it as a way to provide a sop to revolutionary sentiment (ie to compromise). Hitler didn't have much time for the aristocracy, who he saw as corrupt and cowardly, and soon there was to way to slow things down. Germany didn't have a backstop. You can avoid the issue here by noting that Hitler didn't get the clear win, but there is nothing that logically prevents that happening. Basically, the political right in Germany was opposed to the Weimar democracy from the outset and hankered after some sort of authoritarian nationalist regime. Though they differed amongst themselves about exactly what they wanted. Some yearned for a restoration of the monarchy, others wanted to emulate the regime of Mussolini. Still others yearned for some sort of oligarchical regime. On the left the communists also were opposed to democracy. Only some of the centrist parties and the Social Democrats supported the Weimar regime. And many of the centrists veered sharply to the right in the economic crisis that beset Germany from 1929. In the 1930 elections the Nazis came from nowhere to become the second largest party behind only the Social Democrats who had nevertheless lost support. The communists also made gains. From this point on a majority of Reichstag seats were held by representatives who wanted to destroy democracy, which effectively ceased to function as such, the Reichstag being entirely bypassed by chancellors ruling by presidential decree. This required the support of President Hindenburg, himself a conservative who really wanted an authoritarian conservative regime. As the economic crisis deepened, support for extremist parties grew whilst the moderate ones more supportive of democracy lost votes. By 1932 the Nazis were the largest political party and the communists third largest. Democracy was no longer workable and some businessmen, many army leaders, and above all the landed aristocracy as well as top civil servants, were plotting various schemes for establishing a right wing authoritarian regime, all of them having the enthusiastic ear of Hindenburg himself. Many thought the Nazis vulgar and undesirable but they feared a party supported now by a third of the people and with 400,000 SA stormtroopers. They thought that any attempt to seize power might well be thwarted if opposed by the Nazis who could command the streets so some of them began to think of ways of harnessing Hitler and Nazi support without conceding control to him. For many months the conservatives tried to persuade Hitler to accept the vice chancellorship, with arch conservative favourite of Hindenburg - von Papen - as chancellor with the offer of a couple of other Nazi cabinet ministers. Hitler refused and insisted upon the chancellorship. So the conservatives began to try and think of ways of conceding that whilst retaining control themselves. The army and the aristocracy above all else - both having the ear of Hindenburg - became supportive of a Hitler chancellorship, imagining that if most other posts went to conservatives they could control Hitler. The main obstacle to this plan in the end was Hindenburg himself, who was personally contemptuous of Hitler, and referred to him with disdain as that "Bohemian corporal". He steadfastly refused to make Hitler chancellor for many weeks and in the end it was only the persuasive efforts of both von Papen - promised the vice-chancellorship by Hitler - and Hindenburg's own son who was won round, which resulted in Hindenburg conceding. Hitler thus became chancellor on January 30th 1933. But only two other cabinet posts went to Nazis, though this included interior minister in charge of the police. All other cabinet posts went to non-Nazi conservatives. The latter thought they were in control, which proved to be a disastrous under-estimation of Hitler. It is thus the case that conservative right wing elements - especially in the aristocracy and army - were responsible for levering Hitler into power, though this was felt necessary only because of his clear support from a third of the electorate, without which they would never have bothered with him. But they miscalculated their ability to control him. Instead he quickly ended up controlling them, which was never their intent. This chimes with my own understanding. I have yet to get any kind of real explanation why simply summarising (as an aside) Hindenburg's role as essentially cynical, required any substantial 'correction'.
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