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Post by ProVeritas on May 29, 2024 14:48:19 GMT
I am NOT talking about the "edges of the system". Yes you are - you are talking about our monarch refusing the legislation of his government. Which he is 100% LEGALLY ENTITLED to do. The Legal Position is 100% central to the this, it is not an "edge of the system" it is its heart. If someone commits murder should they be let off because the legal stipulation of what constitutes murder is an "edge of the system" issue? All The Best
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Post by Orac on May 29, 2024 14:56:40 GMT
Yes you are - you are talking about our monarch refusing the legislation of his government. Which he is 100% LEGALLY ENTITLED to do. The Legal Position is 100% central to the this, it is not an "edge of the system" it is its heart. If someone commits murder should they be let off because the legal stipulation of what constitutes murder is an "edge of the system" issue? All The Best It's technically legal, but it is extraordinary and would signal a significant breach of unwritten rules. The legality is an interesting technicality, but is irrelevant to how a system really works. In a constitutional democracy, what stops the army taking over?
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Post by Deleted on May 29, 2024 15:07:28 GMT
This is your claim, but you have no proof of this. Yes I do: Constitutional Law. The Monarch has the right to deny Royal Assent. There is no Legal route to take to overcome that denial. Do keep up; even the people who disagree with me have admitted that legally I have stated the position correctly. All The Best You're fantasising and offering nothing tangible to go on. Of course the Monarchy has the means to deny Royal Assent, but it doesn't, because the process to reach Royal Assent is satisfactory. You appear to believe the King can just give the finger whenever he pleases and for no reason, whilst offering absolutely no evidence to verify this. If the process becomes too corrupt then he may, which is why Jihadis can't just impose their Akbar. I'm sure many on here would support the King in this instance.
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Post by sandypine on May 29, 2024 15:45:40 GMT
This is your claim, but you have no proof of this. Yes I do: Constitutional Law. The Monarch has the right to deny Royal Assent. There is no Legal route to take to overcome that denial. Do keep up; even the people who disagree with me have admitted that legally I have stated the position correctly. All The Best And as far as I can see almost everyone has agreed with you as regards legality. So we all agree what the legal position is so there is no need to keep on repeating it. We all have to move on to what is likely to happen if the legal position of withholding RA is undertaken by the monarch. The legal position will not be the end of events, you may not care, you may not consider them but events surrounding a Constitutional crisis are very important as they have all changed our democracy in the past which of course is the way democracies develop and progress. We have to ask then is it in the Monarch's best interests to allow the people to have the power that he as head of state can legally wield. If the answer is a resounding yes, and there is little doubt it is, then the legal position you indicate is at best very unlikely to arise and in all probability will never arise. We are what we are in reality not what we are in legal title.
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Post by ProVeritas on May 29, 2024 16:48:51 GMT
Yes I do: Constitutional Law. The Monarch has the right to deny Royal Assent. There is no Legal route to take to overcome that denial. Do keep up; even the people who disagree with me have admitted that legally I have stated the position correctly. All The Best And as far as I can see almost everyone has agreed with you as regards legality. So we all agree what the legal position is so there is no need to keep on repeating it. We all have to move on to what is likely to happen if the legal position of withholding RA is undertaken by the monarch. The legal position will not be the end of events, you may not care, you may not consider them but events surrounding a Constitutional crisis are very important as they have all changed our democracy in the past which of course is the way democracies develop and progress. We have to ask then is it in the Monarch's best interests to allow the people to have the power that he as head of state can legally wield. If the answer is a resounding yes, and there is little doubt it is, then the legal position you indicate is at best very unlikely to arise and in all probability will never arise. We are what we are in reality not what we are in legal title. Ok. The fact that I am correct about the legal position on Royal Assent means it is simply not possible for us to be a Democracy. Nothing becomes Law simply because the majority of people wish it to be so. It MUST pass the final hurdle of Royal Assent. Thus, neither the people, nor parliament are sovereign. From which it follows we are not a Democracy. All The Best
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Post by ProVeritas on May 29, 2024 16:50:29 GMT
Which he is 100% LEGALLY ENTITLED to do. The Legal Position is 100% central to the this, it is not an "edge of the system" it is its heart. If someone commits murder should they be let off because the legal stipulation of what constitutes murder is an "edge of the system" issue? All The Best It's technically legal, but it is extraordinary and would signal a significant breach of unwritten rules. The legality is an interesting technicality, but is irrelevant to how a system really works. In a constitutional democracy, what stops the army taking over? Unwritten Rules are not worth the paper they are written on - they mean absolutely nothing. The legal technicality is not irrelevant, because it is precisely how and why a system works. All The Best
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Post by Orac on May 29, 2024 16:59:51 GMT
It's technically legal, but it is extraordinary and would signal a significant breach of unwritten rules. The legality is an interesting technicality, but is irrelevant to how a system really works. In a constitutional democracy, what stops the army taking over? Unwritten Rules are not worth the paper they are written on - they mean absolutely nothing. If they mean nothing, why doesn't the monarchy simply pick and choose the laws it wants? You should expect a 50% refusal rate. What stops the army taking over in a democracy? A written down rule? Once you understand this, you will have taken the first step towards having a useful insight into what a society really is.
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Post by sandypine on May 29, 2024 17:00:18 GMT
And as far as I can see almost everyone has agreed with you as regards legality. So we all agree what the legal position is so there is no need to keep on repeating it. We all have to move on to what is likely to happen if the legal position of withholding RA is undertaken by the monarch. The legal position will not be the end of events, you may not care, you may not consider them but events surrounding a Constitutional crisis are very important as they have all changed our democracy in the past which of course is the way democracies develop and progress. We have to ask then is it in the Monarch's best interests to allow the people to have the power that he as head of state can legally wield. If the answer is a resounding yes, and there is little doubt it is, then the legal position you indicate is at best very unlikely to arise and in all probability will never arise. We are what we are in reality not what we are in legal title. Ok. The fact that I am correct about the legal position on Royal Assent means it is simply not possible for us to be a Democracy. Nothing becomes Law simply because the majority of people wish it to be so. It MUST pass the final hurdle of Royal Assent. Thus, neither the people, nor parliament are sovereign. From which it follows we are not a Democracy. All The Best Up to 1998 teh death penalty was still on the statute book for specific crimes so legally a judge could pass that sentence. If he had done so we have to consider what would have happened and it is unlikely that even if it was upheld on appeal it would have survived a challenge by the people's representatives and if necessary new law made. So having the legal ability to act in a certain way does not mean that one can without consequence which is what makes democracy work, it is not the legality that binds it is the consensus.
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Post by ProVeritas on May 29, 2024 17:07:24 GMT
Ok. The fact that I am correct about the legal position on Royal Assent means it is simply not possible for us to be a Democracy. Nothing becomes Law simply because the majority of people wish it to be so. It MUST pass the final hurdle of Royal Assent. Thus, neither the people, nor parliament are sovereign. From which it follows we are not a Democracy. All The Best Up to 1998 teh death penalty was still on the statute book for specific crimes so legally a judge could pass that sentence. If he had done so we have to consider what would have happened and it is unlikely that even if it was upheld on appeal it would have survived a challenge by the people's representatives and if necessary new law made. So having the legal ability to act in a certain way does not mean that one can without consequence which is what makes democracy work, it is not the legality that binds it is the consensus. Well, what a shock, something else you are wrong about. The Death Penalty was still available for certain crimes until 31st January 2004, when the UK finally implemented the 13th Protocol of the ECHR, which it had signed up to on 10th October 2023. All The Best
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Post by sandypine on May 29, 2024 17:41:19 GMT
Up to 1998 teh death penalty was still on the statute book for specific crimes so legally a judge could pass that sentence. If he had done so we have to consider what would have happened and it is unlikely that even if it was upheld on appeal it would have survived a challenge by the people's representatives and if necessary new law made. So having the legal ability to act in a certain way does not mean that one can without consequence which is what makes democracy work, it is not the legality that binds it is the consensus. Well, what a shock, something else you are wrong about. The Death Penalty was still available for certain crimes until 31st January 2004, when the UK finally implemented the 13th Protocol of the ECHR, which it had signed up to on 10th October 2023. All The Best Does it matter? I can change it to 2004 if you like or follow some other blurb that says "In January 1999, the then Home Secretary Jack Straw signed the Sixth Protocol of the ECHR, formally abolishing the death penalty in peacetime and in December that year, the Government ratified the Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). This was followed by ratification of Protocol 13 in 2002, thereby totally abolishing capital punishment in the UK, including during times of war." The point stands.
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Post by ProVeritas on May 29, 2024 19:12:18 GMT
Well, what a shock, something else you are wrong about. The Death Penalty was still available for certain crimes until 31st January 2004, when the UK finally implemented the 13th Protocol of the ECHR, which it had signed up to on 10th October 2023. All The Best Does it matter? I can change it to 2004 if you like or follow some other blurb that says "In January 1999, the then Home Secretary Jack Straw signed the Sixth Protocol of the ECHR, formally abolishing the death penalty in peacetime and in December that year, the Government ratified the Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). This was followed by ratification of Protocol 13 in 2002, thereby totally abolishing capital punishment in the UK, including during times of war." The point stands. My point was, and has always been, that LEGAL DETAILS MATTER. Such a shame that is far to complex for some people to grasp. All The Best
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Post by sandypine on May 29, 2024 21:34:56 GMT
Does it matter? I can change it to 2004 if you like or follow some other blurb that says "In January 1999, the then Home Secretary Jack Straw signed the Sixth Protocol of the ECHR, formally abolishing the death penalty in peacetime and in December that year, the Government ratified the Second Optional Protocol to the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR). This was followed by ratification of Protocol 13 in 2002, thereby totally abolishing capital punishment in the UK, including during times of war." The point stands. My point was, and has always been, that LEGAL DETAILS MATTER. Such a shame that is far to complex for some people to grasp. All The Best Of course they matter but they are not, and I repeat not, like a written constitution and effectively inviolate. Our Constitution has arisen through many Constitutional upsets and crises and it is upon such upsets etc that it is predicated. Our laws have not appeared as referenced to the word written down several hundred years ago they are flexible and ever changing and realistically in the hands of the electorate to direct if they so wish. It is riven with flaws and imperfections but it is not the mess that oversees some written Constitutions such as the US and the EU.
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Post by see2 on May 30, 2024 5:47:48 GMT
And as far as I can see almost everyone has agreed with you as regards legality. So we all agree what the legal position is so there is no need to keep on repeating it. We all have to move on to what is likely to happen if the legal position of withholding RA is undertaken by the monarch. The legal position will not be the end of events, you may not care, you may not consider them but events surrounding a Constitutional crisis are very important as they have all changed our democracy in the past which of course is the way democracies develop and progress. We have to ask then is it in the Monarch's best interests to allow the people to have the power that he as head of state can legally wield. If the answer is a resounding yes, and there is little doubt it is, then the legal position you indicate is at best very unlikely to arise and in all probability will never arise. We are what we are in reality not what we are in legal title. Ok. The fact that I am correct about the legal position on Royal Assent means it is simply not possible for us to be a Democracy.Nothing becomes Law simply because the majority of people wish it to be so. It MUST pass the final hurdle of Royal Assent. Thus, neither the people, nor parliament are sovereign. From which it follows we are not a Democracy. All The Best Nope, it means you are flogging a dead horse but are just will not willing to acknowledge it.
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