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Post by anthropoz on Apr 7, 2024 21:19:44 GMT
Isn’t the general feeling among voters interviewed for opinion polls becoming clear that we need a change? Whatever the current government tries gets overshadowed by the everyday realities of a crumbling health service and rising costs. Failing football teams get a new manager. Failing countries need a new government… Yes. The polls are quite clearly showing that it is more a case of the Tories losing votes than Labour winning them. Labour's projected vote share isn't that much bigger than Corbyn's was in 2017. The difference is that Labour's votes are much more efficiently distributed this time, while the tories have lost more than half their support. Labour is actually losing votes to the greens and other smaller parties in seats where it can't lose, while it picks up votes from centrist tories in the seats where the result is less predictable. In other words it looks like there is going to be very large-scale anti-tory tactical voting in tory-held seats. |
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 7, 2024 21:20:23 GMT
Isn’t the general feeling among voters interviewed for opinion polls becoming clear that we need a change? Whatever the current government tries gets overshadowed by the everyday realities of a crumbling health service and rising costs. Failing football teams get a new manager. Failing countries need a new government… Who is going to supply this change? - I'd quite like some change but swapping one centre-left government for another centre-left government is not the change I'm looking for. |
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Post by anthropoz on Apr 7, 2024 21:25:23 GMT
what is this obsession that those on the left have with the NHS? - every developed country has a health system and most perform better than the NHS. Firstly to be clear -- I am not on the left. I haven't expressed my own views on this. My statement was not a political opinion but a historical fact: Labour really did create the NHS. Why those on the left care about the NHS isn't even an interesting question, because the answer is so obvious. You shouldn't need me to answer it. Healthcare in the US is unbelievably expensive, the main reason being that it isn't state controlled. The same operation costs about ten times as much in the US as it does in the UK. That really ought to be all we have to say about that subject. There are many questions about NHS priorities, how we train and retain staff, etc... But the idea that even the centre of UK politics, let alone the left, will let the NHS be destroyed, is for the birds. There is very little support for the privatisation of the NHS. If this was not the case then the tories would have privatised it a long time ago. |
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 7, 2024 21:33:35 GMT
Who is calling for privatisation?
This is another left-wing trope that any criticism of the NHS means that anyone who wants something better is demanding it is privatised.
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Post by anthropoz on Apr 7, 2024 21:43:58 GMT
Who is calling for privatisation? This is another left-wing trope that any criticism of the NHS means that anyone who wants something better is demanding it is privatised. OK. At this point I don't know what point you are trying to make. |
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Post by thescotsman on Apr 7, 2024 23:31:59 GMT
the tories are well used to all this virtue signalling as well...it's all part of the game...they're all tits deep in it Identity politics is not virtue signaling. the though was that pandering to the concept and giving tacit approval to it makes them complicit in it....they have been very happy to let it thrive; an expression of correctness and avoided stamping on it. They've been in power since 2010, how long have people been moaning about identity politics? Hmmmm for about a decade now isn't, but sure, the conservatives don't actually govern so it's not really on their watch that we've seen the rise of the woke...it just happened.... |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Apr 8, 2024 4:34:48 GMT
And when have Labour ever done that? They are the enemy of ordinary people. Labour created the NHS. The tories have always hated it, and always deliberately run it into the ground, because they would like it to cease to exist one day. I thought everybody knew that. The political reality of the post-war UK is not some sort of secret. The tories have always represented the interests of the richest 10%, by trying to assemble a coalition of support large enough to ensure they retain power. Labour has always attempted to govern in the interest of everybody else, with varying degrees of success. Gawd, not this old chestnut: Since the formation of the NHS two-thirds of our governments have been Tory and the NHS is still with us. Yet every week someone, somewhere foretells the imminent demise of the NHS at the hands of the Tories. Well sorry guys, but it's been 74 years and they haven't privatised it yet. |
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Post by Pacifico on Apr 8, 2024 6:45:34 GMT
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Post by anthropoz on Apr 8, 2024 7:11:04 GMT
Labour created the NHS. The tories have always hated it, and always deliberately run it into the ground, because they would like it to cease to exist one day. I thought everybody knew that. The political reality of the post-war UK is not some sort of secret. The tories have always represented the interests of the richest 10%, by trying to assemble a coalition of support large enough to ensure they retain power. Labour has always attempted to govern in the interest of everybody else, with varying degrees of success. Gawd, not this old chestnut: Since the formation of the NHS two-thirds of our governments have been Tory and the NHS is still with us. Yet every week someone, somewhere foretells the imminent demise of the NHS at the hands of the Tories. Well sorry guys, but it's been 74 years and they haven't privatised it yet. I didn't say that the NHS is about to disappear or fall apart. There's too many people willing to defend it. The fact that the tories have been in power more than anybody else since the creation of the NHS is not justification for believing they don't want to abolish it. They can't abolish it, because the electoral consequences would be too severe. They would have to announce it in a manifesto and win power based on that pledge, and I think we both know that isn't possible. For what it is worth, I don't see how the NHS can survive in its current form. Not with the boomers now heading for the point where they start clogging it up en-masse. There's too many of them, and it costs too much to keep them alive until the bitter end. We need to focus on quality of life, not quantity. We aren't culturally ready for this debate, but it is coming anyway. |
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Post by sheepy on Apr 8, 2024 7:17:14 GMT
LOL get rid of the boomers, they are the root cause of all things, pensions, NHS, but most of all no longer able to contribute. Resources are getting scarce we need to decide who gets what.
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Post by sheepy on Apr 8, 2024 7:32:34 GMT
The thing is Einstein what happens when AI no longer requires your input?
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Post by witchfinder on Apr 8, 2024 7:41:53 GMT
I read this morning in a couple of newspapers that Waiting Times for beds from A&E Departments into hospital wards rose sharply - Last year 150,000 people waited more than 24 hours for a bed, this is a TEN FOLD INCREASE from 2019.
One of the newspapers reporting these figures is The Times, waiting times are rising two years after the Covid pandemic, just as they were rising before the Covid pandemic.
Who takes Labour seriously ? ... Who takes this government seriously ?
THe general feeling is that Labour cant be any worse than this shower of shit
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Post by anthropoz on Apr 8, 2024 7:53:48 GMT
LOL get rid of the boomers, they are the root cause of all things, pensions, NHS, but most of all no longer able to contribute. Resources are getting scarce we need to decide who gets what. Yes, basically. Why should people in their 20s and 30s, who have no hope of ever getting out of renting, pay for the retirement and end-of-life healthcare of the boomers? The boomers have had it all their own way for their whole lives. To be clear: I am not blaming the boomers. They just got lucky, until now. |
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Post by Handyman on Apr 8, 2024 8:19:07 GMT
what is this obsession that those on the left have with the NHS? - every developed country has a health system and most perform better than the NHS. Firstly to be clear -- I am not on the left. I haven't expressed my own views on this. My statement was not a political opinion but a historical fact: Labour really did create the NHS. Why those on the left care about the NHS isn't even an interesting question, because the answer is so obvious. You shouldn't need me to answer it. Healthcare in the US is unbelievably expensive, the main reason being that it isn't state controlled. The same operation costs about ten times as much in the US as it does in the UK. That really ought to be all we have to say about that subject. There are many questions about NHS priorities, how we train and retain staff, etc... But the idea that even the centre of UK politics, let alone the left, will let the NHS be destroyed, is for the birds. There is very little support for the privatisation of the NHS. If this was not the case then the tories would have privatised it a long time ago. I disagree it was Beveridge that created the blueprint for the NHS tasked by the Tories to do so after WW2 War Labour won the election and they put it in place with the approval of both sides of the House Following the 1942 Beveridge Report's recommendation to create "comprehensive health and rehabilitation services for prevention and cure of disease", cross-party consensus emerged on introducing a National Health Service of some description.[16] Conservative MP and Health Minister, Henry Willink later advanced this notion of a National Health Service in 1944 with his consultative White Paper "A National Health Service" which was circulated in full and short versions to colleagues, as well as in newsreel.[17] When Clement Attlee's Labour Party won the 1945 election he appointed Aneurin Bevan as Health Minister. Bevan then embarked upon what the official historian of the NHS, Charles Webster, called an "audacious campaign" to take charge of the form the NHS finally took.[18] Bevan's National Health Service was proposed in Westminster legislation for England and Wales from 1946 |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Apr 8, 2024 8:41:21 GMT
LOL get rid of the boomers, they are the root cause of all things, pensions, NHS, but most of all no longer able to contribute. Resources are getting scarce we need to decide who gets what. Yes, basically. Why should people in their 20s and 30s, who have no hope of ever getting out of renting, pay for the retirement and end-of-life healthcare of the boomers? The boomers have had it all their own way for their whole lives. To be clear: I am not blaming the boomers. They just got lucky, until now. Yes, damn those boomers. I mean, they only built and paid for the NHS. |
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