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Post by Steve on Oct 25, 2022 10:05:46 GMT
IMHO for future referendums it would be better to go down a route of deterring illegality than reruns. Proper £1M per person involved fines and jail sentences for 'perverting the course of democracy' would make people think twice. Also an ability (which IIRC New Zealand has) to preclude the making of false statements in a campaign would be a good move. Yes, that makes more sense, backed up with the possibly of a re-run if necessary. And at the expense of the guilty But we have to start with an honest Electoral Commission empowered to act to prevent perversion of votes. We have neither |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 25, 2022 15:05:39 GMT
Record breaking because we have only had a handful of referenda and in 75 there was no spend limit so the Yes campaign spent three times as much as the no. It is interesting you call a 10% overspend as record breaking yet in South Thanet a 200% overspend is not record breaking. If I recall you call the result of the EU referendum close and ignore it is 1.3 million votes but prefer to talk in percentages of about 4%. I think we all have to be consistent and I include myself there but at least I try to be as everything is relative. Of course my figures are estimates as I was making a general point but that is what you are saying that approx £1.50 changed hundreds of thousands of people's votes. No record breaking because we have had thousands of elections (over 600 each General Election for a start) )and this was by far and away the largest ever illegal overspend. Seems you don't want to admit that Which is why I said it depends how you look at it. You call it record breaking because you wish it to be considered as something that potentially changed an outcome. If that is the measure it is not record breaking as South Thanet is worse where a specific result was sought especially in that Constituency and against the person standing against the Conservative candidate. It was not an attempt to take the Tories into government it was an attempt to keep a specific person out of parliament. So it was only predicated on the result in that specific constituency and percentage wise it was an enormous overspend, some 200%+. Which pales the 10% overspend into insignificance. But there again we disagree on how to view record breaking. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 25, 2022 16:20:56 GMT
let me answer this so you feel appeased in some small meaningfull way.
No.
The result must be enacted .
As it turned out , you had five votes over a four year period to see if the public had changed thier minds , and each time brexiters walloped you at the ballot box. So it really is a piss poor hypothetical question when considering the facts and that the public had not changed thier minds .
But as you yourself said 'The brexit referendum rules were made before the game was played' And they were broken, big time. By record levels. And then all the big promises of Vote Leave were shown to be BS as they very much could not and never have delivered on that promise that UK businesses would trade freely with the EU. Our biggest export area of Financial Services continues to have huge difficulties selling in the EU. And then May tried to foist on the UK a truly awful exit deal so there was nothing wrong with MPs refusing to back that. But there was no anti democracy a you and others have positioned. What rules were broken?
We hear about foul play and sour grapes after every election not to mention the various referendums in my lifetime.
Claims about dodgy postal voting , stitch ups in marginals , re drawing constituencies every time to suit red or blue tory , the infamous 40 % rule of the 1979 scot devolution referendum and so on. It hasnt invalidated any election or referendum so why brexit?
Could it be nothing more than southern english middle class liberals simply throw toys out the pram becuase they cant accept the working class voted brexit?
Petulia cant get her romanian au pair , or vivian her slovac cleaner pardon the pun?
Oh my those nasty working class voters have spoken and its not to their liking.
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Post by thomas on Oct 25, 2022 16:25:46 GMT
There was clear rules and a guideline.
Sorry you dont like democracy when it goes against you , but sometimes you have to accept people dont agree with your views.
If there was then they were clearly broken. I'm referring to any future referendums which IMO, the breaking of rules and or regulations should make the result null and void, even if they were in my favour. That might be a little too honest of me, for you to understand. Your silly immature false assessment posted about me and democracy just makes you look silly and immature. The rules were clearly "broken" becuase you didnt win the referendum? LMFAO.
Your honour , i rest my case.
Democracy in three simple steps.
1.You vote.
2.You implement the result .
3.Then campaign anew.
Everytime you lose are you remoaners going to skip step two and demand to go to step three ?
I mean whats the point in democracy then?
Perhaps we need a new democratic rule that only the mature adults can vote , and the immature ones who cant stand losing are banned in case toys are launched from prams with crys of foul play ref!
You need to listen to yourself. Honestly.
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Post by Steve on Oct 25, 2022 16:28:49 GMT
But as you yourself said 'The brexit referendum rules were made before the game was played' And they were broken, big time. By record levels. And then all the big promises of Vote Leave were shown to be BS as they very much could not and never have delivered on that promise that UK businesses would trade freely with the EU. Our biggest export area of Financial Services continues to have huge difficulties selling in the EU. And then May tried to foist on the UK a truly awful exit deal so there was nothing wrong with MPs refusing to back that. But there was no anti democracy a you and others have positioned. What rules were broken?
We hear about foul play and sour grapes after every election not to mention the various referendums in my lifetime.
Claims about dodgy postal voting , stitch ups in marginals , re drawing constituencies every time to suit red or blue tory , the infamous 40 % rule of the 1979 scot devolution referendum and so on. It hasnt invalidated any election or referendum so why brexit? . . .
You really don't know about how Vote Leave overspent the £7M legal limit on campaigning costs in the relevant campaign period? Or how they did by having Gove do a deal with the mug Darren Grimes for him to launder £675k of Vote Leave's IT costs in order that Vote Leave could campaign (with targeted Facebook and other messaging) right to the last hours when remain had had to shut down as they neared the same limit? Really? And election results have been overturned for overspending. One of the reasons for the 2017 General Election is the Tories knew several of the 2015 results were about to be overturned because of illegal overspends (incl in Thanet as Sandy mentions) |
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Post by thomas on Oct 25, 2022 16:34:38 GMT
What rules were broken?
We hear about foul play and sour grapes after every election not to mention the various referendums in my lifetime.
Claims about dodgy postal voting , stitch ups in marginals , re drawing constituencies every time to suit red or blue tory , the infamous 40 % rule of the 1979 scot devolution referendum and so on. It hasnt invalidated any election or referendum so why brexit? . . .
You really don't know about how Vote Leave overspent the £7M legal limit on campaigning costs in the relevant campaign period? ...and ? Where were you when we had similar in the scot indy referndum and all the underhand tactics back in 2014? Where were you middle class defenders of democracy then?
I think it sounds like you have severe and bitter sour grapes old fruit.
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Post by Steve on Oct 25, 2022 16:39:09 GMT
More like you know you've been rumbled as having known all along about that illegal spend and so are desperately using a false story trying to move the goal posts onto the 2014 Scottish referendum - where there were no campaign spend limits
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Post by thomas on Oct 25, 2022 16:44:26 GMT
More like you know you've been rumbled as having known all along about that illegal spend and so are desperately using a false story trying to move the goal posts onto the 2014 Scottish referendum - where there were no campaign spend limitsrumbled about what? We had remainers bleating about everything from it was all the russians fault to anything else they could think of to try and invalidate the result , so much so didnt some remainer journalist end up in court for telling porkies about a brexiter?
im providing context of how voting usually works and all the usual claims of sour grapes , wether true or untrue , never seem to invaldiate the result. Except of course when it comes to remoaners and brexit.
didnt you see my earlier post when i said this?
face it steve. You are a bad loser and its that simple.
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Post by thomas on Oct 25, 2022 17:00:07 GMT
More like you know you've been rumbled as having known all along about that illegal spend and so are desperately using a false story trying to move the goal posts onto the 2014 Scottish referendum - where there were no campaign spend limitsWhat about the complaints about illegal donations to the uk campaign in scotland in 2014 to keep us in the union .
For example....
Those making gifts to various arms of the No campaign include the mysterious Rain Dance Investments (£200,000) – a company with no website, which appears to be based in an eight-bedroomed house in a small village in Lincoln which also seems to be home to numerous other companies.
im sure such a moral arbiter of all that is right and good such as yourself steve will be championing scotlands right to re run the 2014 referendum under sour grapes .
somehow unsurprisingly , i cant see it.
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Post by Steve on Oct 25, 2022 17:04:50 GMT
So is whataboutery all you have left?
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Post by jonksy on Oct 25, 2022 17:31:11 GMT
So is whataboutery all you have left? Yaaaawwwwnnnnn.
There is a long list of reasons why Carole Cadwalladr’s claims that Vote Leave “cheated” on their spending during the referendum are wrong. First and foremost, the Remain campaign did exactly the same thing that Cadwalladr is accusing Vote Leave of, only far, far worse. Vote Leave gifted BeLeave £625,000. Yet in the month before the vote the Remainers set up FIVE new campaigns and funnelled a MILLION pounds into them so they could stay under the spending limit:
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Post by see2 on Oct 25, 2022 18:32:50 GMT
If there was then they were clearly broken. I'm referring to any future referendums which IMO, the breaking of rules and or regulations should make the result null and void, even if they were in my favour. That might be a little too honest of me, for you to understand. Your silly immature false assessment posted about me and democracy just makes you look silly and immature. The rules were clearly "broken" becuase you didnt win the referendum? LMFAO.
Your honour , i rest my case.
Democracy in three simple steps.
1.You vote.
2.You implement the result .
3.Then campaign anew.
Everytime you lose are you remoaners going to skip step two and demand to go to step three ?
I mean whats the point in democracy then?
Perhaps we need a new democratic rule that only the mature adults can vote , and the immature ones who cant stand losing are banned in case toys are launched from prams with crys of foul play ref!
You need to listen to yourself. Honestly.
If only you had the ability to actually address the post you pretend to reply to, your post only exposes your inability to do that. I see you laughing at your own immature comment  You honestly do not have a case, but with the amount of moaning you do you are either a remoaner or you are out to beat remoaners at their own game. |
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Post by Steve on Oct 25, 2022 20:53:55 GMT
So is whataboutery all you have left? Yaaaawwwwnnnnn.
There is a long list of reasons why Carole Cadwalladr’s claims that Vote Leave “cheated” on their spending during the referendum are wrong. First and foremost, the Remain campaign did exactly the same thing that Cadwalladr is accusing Vote Leave of, only far, far worse. Vote Leave gifted BeLeave £625,000. Yet in the month before the vote the Remainers set up FIVE new campaigns and funnelled a MILLION pounds into them so they could stay under the spending limit:
Complete shite from a frequent source. |
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Post by jonksy on Oct 25, 2022 21:05:29 GMT
Yaaaawwwwnnnnn.
There is a long list of reasons why Carole Cadwalladr’s claims that Vote Leave “cheated” on their spending during the referendum are wrong. First and foremost, the Remain campaign did exactly the same thing that Cadwalladr is accusing Vote Leave of, only far, far worse. Vote Leave gifted BeLeave £625,000. Yet in the month before the vote the Remainers set up FIVE new campaigns and funnelled a MILLION pounds into them so they could stay under the spending limit:
That you CANNOT dispute. There are plenty of other sources out there. And we are all used to the usual remainers MO of attacking the source and not the content. I haven't seen or heard a remainer yet that has got an original thought in their head or have learnt anything from having their arses kicked so many times. |
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Post by thomas on Oct 26, 2022 6:46:14 GMT
So is whataboutery all you have left? lol. Every post of yours on losing a democratic referendum from 6 years ago is whataboutery of the highest order.
Brexiters spent more than remainers . wah wah wah.
brexiters lied more than remainers lied. Wah wah wah.
what about this ? What about that?
Grow up steve , instead of crying about losing democratic votes please.
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