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Post by ratcliff on Apr 2, 2024 19:01:16 GMT
Indeed - the 11+ system produced the greatest leap in social mobility that this country has ever seen. It produced a whole generation of politicians from Harold Wilson to John Major who came from humble backgrounds to the pinnacle of political life. It's ironic that it was the Labour Party who were instrumental in introducing this leap in social mobility and it was also the Labour Party who destroyed it. It was good for its time, but the education system needed to move on in order to encourage more people into higher education. Crash standards and more people ''qualify'' for higher education - it's not rocket science |
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Post by Orac on Apr 2, 2024 19:09:25 GMT
It was good for its time, but the education system needed to move on in order to encourage more people into higher education. Crash standards and more people ''qualify'' for higher education - it's not rocket science More teachers, more resources (including time) wasted - it's a win win |
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Post by Bentley on Apr 2, 2024 19:40:02 GMT
In the 60s three was the 11 plus and 13+ exams that selected children for grammar / grammar tech schools . These were academic based . They worked . Secondary schools were more vocational based schools but a child could be selected at 13 for Grammar schools and / or take CSE exams . CSE A pass was the equivalent of a GCE C pass . This gave the secondary school child the chance to go to sixth form college to study for A levels . The claim that the grammar selection system was unfair is a lie . A lie constructed by the losers who dud nit or could not pass the 11+ or 13+ or achieve enough CSE A passes . Either that or from political indoctrination. The 11+ system was both unfair and inadequate. which are the basic reason it was dumped. It is a silly lie to deny the obvious. I was at evening class in the 1980s, the Tutor was a teacher at a grammar school he said the failure rate at many Grammar schools was high. If the 11+ system was better than we have now why is there no serious demand for its return? Nothing stops the students from comprehensive schools progressing through the academic ranks. Is the fact that universities are over subscribed down the scrapping of the 11+ or is it just a coincidence? It seems that even those who went to grammar school and failed, still want to support that out dated system. It was fair and adequate, it’s a lie to say otherwise . Define failure rate? Your tutor was wrong . There is a demand by people who know what they are talking about l Nothing stops anyone from getting a degree by the open university but it’s better to go to university . Universities are over subscribed because they are the only way to progress . There us no decent apprenticeships or trainee systems . Degrees are the starting point now. It seems the ones who failed the 11+ want to destroy the system they failed at. |
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Post by Bentley on Apr 2, 2024 19:41:52 GMT
I didn’t expect you to post sense. I wasn’t disappointed. Back in the school yard I see, BYE. Back to projection I see. |
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Post by see2 on Apr 3, 2024 7:58:03 GMT
It was good for its time, but the education system needed to move on in order to encourage more people into higher education. Crash standards and more people ''qualify'' for higher education - it's not rocket science Evidence please. |
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Post by see2 on Apr 3, 2024 8:23:24 GMT
The 11+ system was both unfair and inadequate. which are the basic reason it was dumped. It is a silly lie to deny the obvious. I was at evening class in the 1980s, the Tutor was a teacher at a grammar school he said the failure rate at many Grammar schools was high. If the 11+ system was better than we have now why is there no serious demand for its return? Nothing stops the students from comprehensive schools progressing through the academic ranks. Is the fact that universities are over subscribed down the scrapping of the 11+ or is it just a coincidence? It seems that even those who went to grammar school and failed, still want to support that out dated system. It was fair and adequate, it’s a lie to say otherwise . Define failure rate? Your tutor was wrong . There is a demand by people who know what they are talking about l Nothing stops anyone from getting a degree by the open university but it’s better to go to university . Universities are over subscribed because they are the only way to progress . There us no decent apprenticeships or trainee systems . Degrees are the starting point now. It seems the ones who failed the 11+ want to destroy the system they failed at. 1. It is self delusional to claim that it was either 'fair' or adequate. It had its own cut-off point based upon the number of seats available in grammar schools etc. 2. Do your own research -- I'll take the evidence from someone involved like a Grammar school teacher. 3. There are people with different opinions. 4. --"These are some of the options when leaving comprehensive education: stay in full-time education, e.g. at a college, doing A Levels, T Levels or other academic qualifications, start an apprenticeship, work or volunteer for 20 hours or more a week while in part-time education or training. 5. Thanks for your opinions. 6. The 11+ system destroyed itself. Those who 'failed' or who never sat the exam, had no influence whatsoever over its demise. Those who went to grammar schools and failed probably had more to do with the demise of the system. |
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Post by Bentley on Apr 3, 2024 10:50:30 GMT
It was fair and adequate, it’s a lie to say otherwise . Define failure rate? Your tutor was wrong . There is a demand by people who know what they are talking about l Nothing stops anyone from getting a degree by the open university but it’s better to go to university . Universities are over subscribed because they are the only way to progress . There us no decent apprenticeships or trainee systems . Degrees are the starting point now. It seems the ones who failed the 11+ want to destroy the system they failed at. 1. It is self delusional to claim that it was either 'fair' or adequate. It had its own cut-off point based upon the number of seats available in grammar schools etc. 2. Do your own research -- I'll take the evidence from someone involved like a Grammar school teacher. 3. There are people with different opinions. 4. --"These are some of the options when leaving comprehensive education: stay in full-time education, e.g. at a college, doing A Levels, T Levels or other academic qualifications, start an apprenticeship, work or volunteer for 20 hours or more a week while in part-time education or training. 5. Thanks for your opinions. 6. The 11+ system destroyed itself. Those who 'failed' or who never sat the exam, had no influence whatsoever over its demise. Those who went to grammar schools and failed probably had more to do with the demise of the system. It’s self delusional to think it wasn’t fair or adequate . There was plenty of seats available in grammar schools . In fact enough for anyone who passed the exam .🙄 Why should I take the word of one who failed the 11+plus who took the word of a failed grammar school teacher when I attended a successful grammar school after I passed the 11+? There are people who never had the opportunity of attending grammar schools who are advised by people who were too thick to pass the 11+ and/ or have misguided political objections against them. There always have been those options . The only thing that you have to post is opinions . That and a claim by a failed teacher . Nope. There were always opportunities for secondary school pupils to get into a grammar tech and / or sixth form college . Grammar schools were destroyed by bitter lefties and failures. |
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Post by see2 on Apr 4, 2024 10:23:41 GMT
1. It is self delusional to claim that it was either 'fair' or adequate. It had its own cut-off point based upon the number of seats available in grammar schools etc. 2. Do your own research -- I'll take the evidence from someone involved like a Grammar school teacher. 3. There are people with different opinions. 4. --"These are some of the options when leaving comprehensive education: stay in full-time education, e.g. at a college, doing A Levels, T Levels or other academic qualifications, start an apprenticeship, work or volunteer for 20 hours or more a week while in part-time education or training. 5. Thanks for your opinions. 6. The 11+ system destroyed itself. Those who 'failed' or who never sat the exam, had no influence whatsoever over its demise. Those who went to grammar schools and failed probably had more to do with the demise of the system. It’s self delusional to think it wasn’t fair or adequate . There was plenty of seats available in grammar schools . In fact enough for anyone who passed the exam .🙄 Why should I take the word of one who failed the 11+plus who took the word of a failed grammar school teacher when I attended a successful grammar school after I passed the 11+? There are people who never had the opportunity of attending grammar schools who are advised by people who were too thick to pass the 11+ and/ or have misguided political objections against them. There always have been those options . The only thing that you have to post is opinions . That and a claim by a failed teacher . Nope. There were always opportunities for secondary school pupils to get into a grammar tech and / or sixth form college . Grammar schools were destroyed by bitter lefties and failures. Ha ha, the 11+ was designed to fill the seats available, and no more. It was an attempt to do the impossible of picking the best suited for Grammar school education and to do that on a single day with a single exam. Just think about that. You need to do better than just apply your imagination to the debate. Ditto ^^^ I posted reality and the evidence of the experience from a Grammar school tutor. Correct, so options including University do not end after Comprehensive education. Your opinion looks more like some sort of self defense. |
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Post by ratcliff on Apr 4, 2024 10:50:37 GMT
It’s self delusional to think it wasn’t fair or adequate . There was plenty of seats available in grammar schools . In fact enough for anyone who passed the exam .🙄 Why should I take the word of one who failed the 11+plus who took the word of a failed grammar school teacher when I attended a successful grammar school after I passed the 11+? There are people who never had the opportunity of attending grammar schools who are advised by people who were too thick to pass the 11+ and/ or have misguided political objections against them. There always have been those options . The only thing that you have to post is opinions . That and a claim by a failed teacher . Nope. There were always opportunities for secondary school pupils to get into a grammar tech and / or sixth form college . Grammar schools were destroyed by bitter lefties and failures. Ha ha, the 11+ was designed to fill the seats available, and no more. It was an attempt to do the impossible of picking the best suited for Grammar school education and to do that on a single day with a single exam. Just think about that. You need to do better than just apply your imagination to the debate. Ditto ^^^ I posted reality and the evidence of the experience from a Grammar school tutor. Correct, so options including University do not end after Comprehensive education. Your opinion looks more like some sort of self defense.
Just like a highly academically qualified airline pilot every single time they take the controls of an airliner for a flight They have one chance to get it right They can't go back for seconds because they wanted excuses for failing first time |
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Post by Vinny on Apr 4, 2024 11:31:45 GMT
My remarks concerned industrial policy or the lack of one rather than social policy. But as far as education policy is concerned, the Labour government performed the initial wrecking of the educational system by forcing US-style comprehensive schools on all local authorities in the 1960s. This decline of secondary education into mediocrity was done for purely ideological reasons, a job which the Blairites completed by mandating a US-style tertiary system in which anyone who desired a 'college education' could get one if they can pay for it, or find somebody else who will. The Tories have proved just as guilty by not repealing these disastrous changes when they've had the chance. True. |
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Post by Bentley on Apr 4, 2024 11:42:49 GMT
It’s self delusional to think it wasn’t fair or adequate . There was plenty of seats available in grammar schools . In fact enough for anyone who passed the exam .🙄 Why should I take the word of one who failed the 11+plus who took the word of a failed grammar school teacher when I attended a successful grammar school after I passed the 11+? There are people who never had the opportunity of attending grammar schools who are advised by people who were too thick to pass the 11+ and/ or have misguided political objections against them. There always have been those options . The only thing that you have to post is opinions . That and a claim by a failed teacher . Nope. There were always opportunities for secondary school pupils to get into a grammar tech and / or sixth form college . Grammar schools were destroyed by bitter lefties and failures. Ha ha, the 11+ was designed to fill the seats available, and no more. It was an attempt to do the impossible of picking the best suited for Grammar school education and to do that on a single day with a single exam. Just think about that. You need to do better than just apply your imagination to the debate. Ditto ^^^ I posted reality and the evidence of the experience from a Grammar school tutor. Correct, so options including University do not end after Comprehensive education. Your opinion looks more like some sort of self defense. Absolute nonsense from a serial waffler. Grammar schools were being built to accommodate more grammar school . I know because a third grammar / tech was built in my old area . All of your posts come from your imagination and a failed grammar school teacher. You merely reflect the envy of the bitter , loser and failure. |
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Post by ratcliff on Apr 4, 2024 12:19:31 GMT
Crash standards and more people ''qualify'' for higher education - it's not rocket science Evidence please. You seriously don't understand that lowering a pass standard means that higher numbers of people will pass the minimum standard? I'd have thought that even bitter 11+ failures would understand that basic tenet |
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Post by see2 on Apr 4, 2024 16:18:29 GMT
Ha ha, the 11+ was designed to fill the seats available, and no more. It was an attempt to do the impossible of picking the best suited for Grammar school education and to do that on a single day with a single exam. Just think about that. You need to do better than just apply your imagination to the debate. Ditto ^^^ I posted reality and the evidence of the experience from a Grammar school tutor. Correct, so options including University do not end after Comprehensive education. Your opinion looks more like some sort of self defense.
Just like a highly academically qualified airline pilot every single time they take the controls of an airliner for a flight They have one chance to get it right They can't go back for seconds because they wanted excuses for failing first time You aren't too bad when it comes to looking for excuses, but to compare a Pilot flying a plane with the someone sitting a one off exam is a bit too silly even for you. |
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Post by see2 on Apr 4, 2024 16:20:20 GMT
You seriously don't understand that lowering a pass standard means that higher numbers of people will pass the minimum standard? I'd have thought that even bitter 11+ failures would understand that basic tenet Are you really being serious when you ask such a silly question? ^^^ |
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Post by see2 on Apr 4, 2024 16:32:06 GMT
Ha ha, the 11+ was designed to fill the seats available, and no more. It was an attempt to do the impossible of picking the best suited for Grammar school education and to do that on a single day with a single exam. Just think about that. You need to do better than just apply your imagination to the debate. Ditto ^^^ I posted reality and the evidence of the experience from a Grammar school tutor. Correct, so options including University do not end after Comprehensive education. Your opinion looks more like some sort of self defense. Absolute nonsense from a serial waffler. Grammar schools were being built to accommodate more grammar school . I know because a third grammar / tech was built in my old area . All of your posts come from your imagination and a failed grammar school teacher. You merely reflect the envy of the bitter , loser and failure. Ha ha, was that before or after the exams? Even so what happened to students before more grammar schools were built? How many grammar schools closed down for one reason or another? It is whole questionable area. And none of which saved the 11+ from self extinction. One thing is certain, I'm not a loser. My education allowed me to retrained from being a skilled engineer into a professional position where I immediately almost trebled my income, improved my status and my working conditions and began to enjoy some of the perks of working as a professional. Tell me, how well did your education work for you? |
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