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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Mar 16, 2024 13:58:03 GMT
The people who ruined the Tory Party were the Eurosceptics, they are the people who caused several short lived but destructive civil wars in the Conservative Party. Thatcher was Pro European, perhaps not to the extent of political integration, but she believed in a Pan-European community of trade and co-operation. Sir Winston Churchill believed in a "United States of Europe", Ted Heath believed in the European Union, as did John Major. The Euro Sceptics have killed off a large part of the decent Tories, the moderates, the ones who were statesmen, cultured, internationally respected. NOW ... The Tory Party doesn't know what it is, the civil war between the Right-Populists-Eurosceptics Versus the moderates, the traditional Conservatives, the REAL Centre Right, rages on. The Conservative Party needs a spell in opposition in order that they can sort out who they are, and what they stand for. A governing political party in the middle of a battle for control, is not good for our country. John Major was perhaps the last Tory Prime Minister we could describe as "Old School", and he was brought down by the Euro Sceptics, and Cameron saw his demise brought about by a broken, divided Britain caused by a referendum. Remarkable: You have it exactly arse about face.
The Tories current problem is that they're trying to be New Labour. Of course, the Labourites will never vote Tory and now neither will the traditional Tory voter.
That's why they're fucked. We do not need two Labour Parties.
(Hell, we don't even need one).
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Post by Bentley on Mar 16, 2024 14:02:32 GMT
Well of course the US has hegemony over the West and you are right to point that out . However my point included the US. Trump couldn’t drain the swamp or build the wall , Biden just looks confused , says the words here told to say and ambles off. The POTUS isn’t in charge , the men in suits are . That's right and so that is why the ones who front it are idiots. They need the help of the men in suits.
The best kind of politician we could hope to vote for is a self-made highly intelligent independent. They need the high intelligence to go agaisnt the grain. David Tully looked the sort to me.
Maybe all the self made intelligent independent people are aware of what POTUS is in reality . Maybe that’s why nobody of that calibre is vying for it . |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Mar 16, 2024 14:20:26 GMT
That's right and so that is why the ones who front it are idiots. They need the help of the men in suits.
The best kind of politician we could hope to vote for is a self-made highly intelligent independent. They need the high intelligence to go agaisnt the grain. David Tully looked the sort to me.
Maybe all the self made intelligent independent people are aware of what POTUS is in reality . Maybe that’s why nobody of that calibre is vying for it . The thing is morality is a part of that intelligence. The part of the brain that understands ethics is the same part of the brain that calculates stuff. Julian Assange is what we would call a modern day hero. He figured out a flaw in the legal system and he was an expert in cryptography, which is very mathematical. He is known to have an exceptionally high intelligence and ranks in the genius category. We need more like him. The only way they could beat him was by cheating, but it seems to me the cheating has not gone unnoticed. Of course the other component that makes up a hero is exceptional bravery. Moorcock called such people eternal champions, who turned up in various stages of history to save humanity. It will be interesting to see if he finally manages to break free. Meng Wanzhou was another and she took the blighters on an won. She got a hero's welcome as the plane landed. |
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Post by witchfinder on Mar 16, 2024 14:56:29 GMT
It doesn't matter who they put in charge, the current Tory MPs are liberal democratic wokists, they could elect Genghis Khan as leader but none of them would support any Tory principles so no point, the best that we can hope for is a substantial Tory wipeout followed by a robust and active Reform UK opposition, ready to step in at the next election after Labour have demonstrated their total malignant agenda. Is it my imagination, but I sense that Starmer is not overjoyed at the prospect of being PM of the shambles he is going to inherit. It will be impossible to sort out this mess with the MPs in the Labour party, so it is immaterial who we vote for, the wokist civil service will simply run the country to suit their own agenda and ignore whoever will be in power. The Conservative Party is not a "Right Wing" political party Per Se, it is a Centre Right political party, and it always has been. To associate The Conservative Party with Reform UK is wrong, it would be like associating the Labour Party with The Socialist Workers Party, which is what many Corbynites attempted to do ( alter and shift the Labour Party ). The Conservative Party is, and always has been a Libetarian, centre Right party which whilst believes in low taxation and light regulation, has always advocated checks and balances on The Free Market economy. If you are suggesting that the Conservative Party would do better by lurching from Centre Right to Right (populist Right), you would split the Conservative Party and the Conservative vote. |
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 16, 2024 17:44:27 GMT
It doesn't matter who they put in charge, the current Tory MPs are liberal democratic wokists, they could elect Genghis Khan as leader but none of them would support any Tory principles so no point, the best that we can hope for is a substantial Tory wipeout followed by a robust and active Reform UK opposition, ready to step in at the next election after Labour have demonstrated their total malignant agenda. Is it my imagination, but I sense that Starmer is not overjoyed at the prospect of being PM of the shambles he is going to inherit. It will be impossible to sort out this mess with the MPs in the Labour party, so it is immaterial who we vote for, the wokist civil service will simply run the country to suit their own agenda and ignore whoever will be in power. The Conservative Party is not a "Right Wing" political party Per Se, it is a Centre Right political party, and it always has been. To associate The Conservative Party with Reform UK is wrong, it would be like associating the Labour Party with The Socialist Workers Party, which is what many Corbynites attempted to do ( alter and shift the Labour Party ). The Conservative Party is, and always has been a Libetarian, centre Right party which whilst believes in low taxation and light regulation, has always advocated checks and balances on The Free Market economy. If you are suggesting that the Conservative Party would do better by lurching from Centre Right to Right (populist Right), you would split the Conservative Party and the Conservative vote. The corbynites were attempting to return the Labour Party to its Socialist roots - the current 'New labour' Party is nothing like thge Labour Party of old. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Mar 16, 2024 19:24:18 GMT
The Conservative Party is not a "Right Wing" political party Per Se, it is a Centre Right political party, and it always has been. To associate The Conservative Party with Reform UK is wrong, it would be like associating the Labour Party with The Socialist Workers Party, which is what many Corbynites attempted to do ( alter and shift the Labour Party ). The Conservative Party is, and always has been a Libetarian, centre Right party which whilst believes in low taxation and light regulation, has always advocated checks and balances on The Free Market economy. If you are suggesting that the Conservative Party would do better by lurching from Centre Right to Right (populist Right), you would split the Conservative Party and the Conservative vote. The corbynites were attempting to return the Labour Party to its Socialist roots - the current 'New labour' Party is nothing like thge Labour Party of old. They were the days of mass manufacturing where you had factories with thousands of workers doing manual skilled and unskilled jobs turning the same work over day in and day out. Those days will never return, even if manufacturing did return to the UK. It will be factories with no one in them.
You know a defining characteristic of the UK is the UK has a larger than normal section of the population which is completely stupid and at the same time it has an abnormally high level of intelligence at the upper end if compared to other countries, where the distribution is more around average. So any politician needs to start from that point. What can all the stupid people do here in the future? You certainly do not want to hand them equal opportunity to run things.
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Post by jonksy on Mar 16, 2024 19:43:19 GMT
The corbynites were attempting to return the Labour Party to its Socialist roots - the current 'New labour' Party is nothing like thge Labour Party of old. They were the days of mass manufacturing where you had factories with thousands of workers doing manual skilled and unskilled jobs turning the same work over day in and day out. Those days will never return, even if manufacturing did return to the UK. It will be factories with no one in them.
You know a defining characteristic of the UK is the UK has a larger than normal section of the population which is completely stupid and at the same time it has an abnormally high level of intelligence at the upper end if compared to other countries, where the distribution is more around average. So any politician needs to start from that point. What can all the stupid people do here in the future? You certainly do not want to hand them equal opportunity to run things.
In your dreams BVL even the most advanced robototic line cannot operate whithout human intervention and participation. |
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Post by sandypine on Mar 16, 2024 19:49:54 GMT
The people who ruined the Tory Party were the Eurosceptics, they are the people who caused several short lived but destructive civil wars in the Conservative Party. Thatcher was Pro European, perhaps not to the extent of political integration, but she believed in a Pan-European community of trade and co-operation. Sir Winston Churchill believed in a "United States of Europe", Ted Heath believed in the European Union, as did John Major. The Euro Sceptics have killed off a large part of the decent Tories, the moderates, the ones who were statesmen, cultured, internationally respected. NOW ... The Tory Party doesn't know what it is, the civil war between the Right-Populists-Eurosceptics Versus the moderates, the traditional Conservatives, the REAL Centre Right, rages on. The Conservative Party needs a spell in opposition in order that they can sort out who they are, and what they stand for. A governing political party in the middle of a battle for control, is not good for our country. John Major was perhaps the last Tory Prime Minister we could describe as "Old School", and he was brought down by the Euro Sceptics, and Cameron saw his demise brought about by a broken, divided Britain caused by a referendum. Thatcher did not believe in this EU and it is quite likely Churchill would not as well. The Eurosceptics were always seeking the democratic way, which of course the EU rails against and being denied the referendum on the EU and then the Lisbon treaty and finally getting the democratic right for the people to make a decision that they did make against the wishes of many of their representatives. If democracy destroys a party then perhaps the party is not worth saving. The referendum did not cause division our membership of the EU did all teh referendum did was to allow those divisions an airing but they were always there. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Mar 16, 2024 20:51:19 GMT
The 14 Cabinet ministers and Tory big beasts set to lose seats at next election...
If the Tories ditch Sunak NOW, that could all change, they already know this, so why aren't they getting rid of him. probably because they now understand it is far too late and all they can do is despise and deport the bastard after the inevitable and quite unstoppable defeat that is to come. The finest thing that could happen to Britain in the next nine months is for the Tory party to wake up and find it's representation in the Commons on a par with David Steel's, or better still David Owen's party of 1983. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Mar 16, 2024 20:54:36 GMT
To that in bold many people (including me) who voted leave were quite happy with what was the common market and also cooperation with our neighbours,what we did not signup to was the hot air academy in Brussels we have enough hot air in wasteminster and all the accompanying creeping federalisation in various treaties which we were never consulted on. So despite all the accusations of idiocy and ignorance levelled at the leave voters they were the ones who were educated enough to know what they’d signed up to and how the various treaties were slowly entangling us in to a federal state without consultation. When given the opportunity to have their say they did and we left,laughably on another forum the self proclaimed better educated and informed who crowed the superiority of thought then went on to moan that brexit meant they’d lose the right to roam with mobiles and so couldn’t contact their pals whilst on the ski slopes. what pitiful reasoning to remain in an ever encompassing federal project. The UK was always represented in the European Parliament. If any country was against any changes being made the procedure was for that country to seek to find out how many countries agreed with their concerns, then the concerns could be addressed and changed or modified for acceptance. The closer the countries of the EU could work together the better for the EU market place. A Federation: "Having or relating to a system of government in which several states form a unity but remain independent in internal affairs": I suspect that independence part was missed by many who voted for Brexit. The UK and some other EU countries had various opt outs from the Federal part of the EU. I think it is you who need to research the degree to which the federalists in Brussels used the single market to destroy the principle much talked about by Major, but quickly not talked about once he'd conned us with Maastricht, of 'subsidiarity' |
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Post by Deleted on Mar 16, 2024 21:35:50 GMT
Penny the Naval rating has several things going for her:
She's attractive and people vote for good looking people - it's true.
She is extremely eloquent in the House and has demolished several people with her oratory.
She carries a heavy sword well.
On the other hand, she's not quite sure about the trans thing and women with penises. Unless she firms up on that, I wouldn't vote for her.
Actually, considering the (lack of) performance of this bunch of unfunny comedians I'd never vote Tory again.
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Post by Pacifico on Mar 16, 2024 22:33:46 GMT
The corbynites were attempting to return the Labour Party to its Socialist roots - the current 'New labour' Party is nothing like thge Labour Party of old. They were the days of mass manufacturing where you had factories with thousands of workers doing manual skilled and unskilled jobs turning the same work over day in and day out. Those days will never return, even if manufacturing did return to the UK. It will be factories with no one in them.
You know a defining characteristic of the UK is the UK has a larger than normal section of the population which is completely stupid and at the same time it has an abnormally high level of intelligence at the upper end if compared to other countries, where the distribution is more around average. So any politician needs to start from that point. What can all the stupid people do here in the future? You certainly do not want to hand them equal opportunity to run things.
I'm not sure that Socialism was predicated on how many factories you had.. |
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Post by johnofgwent on Mar 16, 2024 22:36:56 GMT
On balance I'm pretty certain she'll never be PM, but she might be the beneficiary of the maelstrom that will pick another as leader when the Tories lose the next election, because few others seem suitable
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Post by Red Rackham on Mar 16, 2024 22:54:32 GMT
Penny the Naval rating has several things going for her: She's attractive and people vote for good looking people - it's true. She is extremely eloquent in the House and has demolished several people with her oratory. She carries a heavy sword well. On the other hand, she's not quite sure about the trans thing and women with penises. Unless she firms up on that, I wouldn't vote for her. Actually, considering the (lack of) performance of this bunch of unfunny comedians I'd never vote Tory again. She is a good candidate which is why, if she's got any sense she will step back from any leadership challenge. Thanks to Sunak the Tories are going to get wiped out, why would anyone with any nous want to step in now. There is without a doubt talented proper centre right Conservatives in the party, but it's too late. Anyone with any serious ambition of becoming the next Conservative prime minister should step back and wait for the dust to settle, and that wont be for a couple of years yet. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Mar 16, 2024 23:03:20 GMT
They were the days of mass manufacturing where you had factories with thousands of workers doing manual skilled and unskilled jobs turning the same work over day in and day out. Those days will never return, even if manufacturing did return to the UK. It will be factories with no one in them.
You know a defining characteristic of the UK is the UK has a larger than normal section of the population which is completely stupid and at the same time it has an abnormally high level of intelligence at the upper end if compared to other countries, where the distribution is more around average. So any politician needs to start from that point. What can all the stupid people do here in the future? You certainly do not want to hand them equal opportunity to run things.
I'm not sure that Socialism was predicated on how many factories you had.. Marx as not talking about factory owners or bankers when he said, "Workers of the world, unite!" |
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