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Post by sandypine on Mar 7, 2024 13:45:17 GMT
Then you have not been involved in politics for the last 60 years; accusing almost everyone of scapegoating has been the MO of those pursuing a policy not predicated on any agreement or covenant with the electorate but has been and is still being enacted largely to the detriment and disadvantage of those whose permission should have been sought. Who makes you feel unwelcome? "Who makes you feel unwelcome?" Well for starters look at the grief I got on here for daring to say I'm English. This from people who complain bitterly about immigrants and their descendants not integrating. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But you did not say you were English you said you were English with Irish heritage, some people just say they are English. You got upset because you classed yourself as being from immigrant stock and did not like some aspects of the debate. It is an eternal problem as regards ethnicity. You want to be both English with no equivocation but also of Irish heritage which separates yourself out from the other English. I am Scots with mostly English heritage and I am different from Scots with mostly Pakistani heritage and Scots with mostly Irish heritage and those who say they are just Scots. EDIT integration is the process of removing all obstacles to assimilation. If one believes one to be something else as well then that is not integration. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 7, 2024 14:25:40 GMT
"Who makes you feel unwelcome?" Well for starters look at the grief I got on here for daring to say I'm English. This from people who complain bitterly about immigrants and their descendants not integrating. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. EDIT integration is the process of removing all obstacles to assimilation. If one believes one to be something else as well then that is not integration. Yes - the stance is asymmetrical - "I am something you are not, but you are not something I am not" - or "I hold my identity while taking yours fully as well"People come to England, tout their exotic, foreign and interesting cultural background and then complain loudly that they aren't thought of as English It's almost as if they expect being English to be not a thing at all |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 7, 2024 14:39:03 GMT
EDIT integration is the process of removing all obstacles to assimilation. If one believes one to be something else as well then that is not integration. Yes - the stance is asymmetrical - "I am something you are not, but you are not something I am not" - or "I hold my identity while taking yours fully as well"People come to England, tout their exotic, foreign and interesting cultural background and then complain loudly that they aren't thought of as English It's almost as if they expect being English to be not a thing at all I've done no such thing, I'm culturally as English as anyone but have spent my whole life having to defend my right to live in my own country because an accident of birth means I don't qualify for some people's unilateral Volksgemeinachsft. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 7, 2024 14:40:48 GMT
"Who makes you feel unwelcome?" Well for starters look at the grief I got on here for daring to say I'm English. This from people who complain bitterly about immigrants and their descendants not integrating. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. But you did not say you were English you said you were English with Irish heritage, some people just say they are English. You got upset because you classed yourself as being from immigrant stock and did not like some aspects of the debate. It is an eternal problem as regards ethnicity. You want to be both English with no equivocation but also of Irish heritage which separates yourself out from the other English. I am Scots with mostly English heritage and I am different from Scots with mostly Pakistani heritage and Scots with mostly Irish heritage and those who say they are just Scots. EDIT integration is the process of removing all obstacles to assimilation. If one believes one to be something else as well then that is not integration. I am English. I also happen to have Irish heritage, the two are not mutually exclusive. My father is Irish, he was also a carpet fitter. I'm not Irish or a carpet fitter. You see how that works? |
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Post by Orac on Mar 7, 2024 15:17:11 GMT
Yes - the stance is asymmetrical - "I am something you are not, but you are not something I am not" - or "I hold my identity while taking yours fully as well"People come to England, tout their exotic, foreign and interesting cultural background and then complain loudly that they aren't thought of as English It's almost as if they expect being English to be not a thing at all I've done no such thing, I'm culturally as English as anyone I'm not so sure. I would say that claiming you are fully as English as anyone else, but have Irish heritage, is doing exactly what i described. You retain your distinction from them, but allow no way for them to claim (hold) a distinction from you. It's inconsistent. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 7, 2024 15:22:54 GMT
I've done no such thing, I'm culturally as English as anyone I'm not so sure. I would say that claiming you are fully as English as anyone else, but have Irish heritage, is doing exactly what i described. You retain your distinction from them, but allow no way for them to claim (hold) a distinction from you. It's inconsistent. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. Like I said my dad is Irish, he was also a carpet fitter, that doesn't make me any less of a Bid Writer. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 7, 2024 15:27:33 GMT
I'm not so sure. I would say that claiming you are fully as English as anyone else, but have Irish heritage, is doing exactly what i described. You retain your distinction from them, but allow no way for them to claim (hold) a distinction from you. It's inconsistent. The two things aren't mutually exclusive. I would say so in terms of identity - If you are distinct from them, then they are distinct from you. Your carpet fitter thing is an example of you doing precisely what i describe - "i am fully everything you are and more" |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 7, 2024 15:33:50 GMT
The two things aren't mutually exclusive. I would say so in terms of identity - If you are distinct from them, then they are distinct from you. Your carpet fitter thing is an example of you doing precisely what i describe - "i am fully everything you are and more" I don't claim to be everything you are and more. I don't consider my Irish heritage to be more or less than your English heritage. Just as I don't think being the son of a left handed mother makes me any more or less than the son of a right handed mother. Why would I? To be honest and no offence, I think your argument says more about your insecurity about your own national identity than mine. If I understand correctly you're only one DNA test result away from losing your English identity forever. Mine is a lot more secure than that. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 7, 2024 15:44:59 GMT
I would say so in terms of identity - If you are distinct from them, then they are distinct from you. Your carpet fitter thing is an example of you doing precisely what i describe - "i am fully everything you are and more" I don't claim to be everything you are and more. I don't consider my Irish heritage to be more or less than your English heritage. I didn't say you did . I said you are claiming one fully, plus another. If we are talking about identity, then this is inconsistent. We have one identity each. It is more like more like saying you are fully female, but also male as well. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 7, 2024 15:48:11 GMT
I don't claim to be everything you are and more. I don't consider my Irish heritage to be more or less than your English heritage. I didn't say you did . I said you are claiming one fully, plus another. If we are talking about identity, then this is inconsistent. We have one identity each. It is more like more like saying you are fully female, but also male as well. I'm a male, my mother being female doesn't make any less male, agreed? In the same way, I'm an Englishman, my father being Irish doesn't make me any less English. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Mar 7, 2024 15:51:28 GMT
I didn't say you did . I said you are claiming one fully, plus another. If we are talking about identity, then this is inconsistent. We have one identity each. It is more like more like saying you are fully female, but also male as well. I'm a male, my mother being female doesn't make any less male, agreed? In the same way, I'm an Englishman, my father being Irish doesn't make me any less English. You can't apply such simple logic to gene selection. They call this reductio ad absurdum. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 7, 2024 15:52:43 GMT
I didn't say you did . I said you are claiming one fully, plus another. If we are talking about identity, then this is inconsistent. We have one identity each. It is more like more like saying you are fully female, but also male as well. I'm a male, my mother being female doesn't make any less male, agreed? In the same way, I'm an Englishman, my father being Irish doesn't make me any less English. No - that's idiotic. Part of being male is having a mother that is female. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 7, 2024 15:55:03 GMT
I'm a male, my mother being female doesn't make any less male, agreed? In the same way, I'm an Englishman, my father being Irish doesn't make me any less English. No - that's idiotic. Part of being male is having a mother that is female. Ok let's try it another way. If your surname was Smith, the fact that yout mother's maiden name was Jones wouldn't make you any less of a Smith would it? You would be a Smith who is descended from Joneses. The two things are not mutually exclusive. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 7, 2024 16:29:16 GMT
No - that's idiotic. Part of being male is having a mother that is female. Ok let's try it another way. If your surname was Smith, the fact that yout mother's maiden name was Jones wouldn't make you any less of a Smith would it? You would have the name Smith. You wouldn't have the name Smith and the name Jones - because you only have one name. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 7, 2024 16:31:43 GMT
Ok let's try it another way. If your surname was Smith, the fact that yout mother's maiden name was Jones wouldn't make you any less of a Smith would it? You would have the name Smith. You wouldn't have the name Smith and the name Jones - because you only have one name. Correct. I would be a Smith of Jones descent. Just as I am an Englishman of Irish descent. |
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