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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 6, 2024 8:56:45 GMT
Did someone, sometime wake up one morning and say to themselves: "You know, what this country really needs is four or five million Muslims. I'll raise the matter at the Cabinet meeting later today."
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Post by buccaneer on Mar 6, 2024 9:02:20 GMT
I think it ended up the Trojan horse of "immigration". Infiltrated.  |
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Post by Orac on Mar 6, 2024 9:19:57 GMT
This is where we came in three pages ago. Part of the problem is semantic and part of it historical. Islam sees itself as a nation with a set of laws, which is in opposition to, or competition with, other nations. It's objective (instruction) is to take control and enforce its rule. Think about this as a simple mimetic survival strategy. Muslims and Christians do not mean the same thing when they use the word 'religion' You honestly believe that everyone who identifies as Muslim is dedicated to this? The same equivocation and straw-man once again. Notice I never used the terms 'every single' or 'everyone' yet you reply as if this is a specific claim i made. Btw the fact that gaining (or furthering) political power is a significant part of Muslim religious observance, is not on its own enough to ring loud alarm bells. The fact that a high proportion of Muslims take this duty seriously, is. The vast majority of Muslims will at least accept that someone who is attempting to further the political power of Islam (through fair means or foul) is acting in accordance with the Muslim faith and that he has a duty to support such efforts if he can. If you compare with Christianity - very few Christians would say that someone attempting to set up a totalitarian theocracy in the UK is acting in accordance with Christianity. The value system is different. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 6, 2024 9:25:25 GMT
"Proportion of Muslims in prison as a proportion to the their numbers in the whole population." Less than 1%. "Muslims responsible for terrorist activity proportional to their numbers in the whole population." Less than 1% of 1%. "Number of Muslims on the terrorist watchlist proportional to their numbers in the whole population" Around 1% "The number of Muslims economically inactive as a proportion of their numbers in the whole population." 41.9% Not sure where you get your figures from. Muslims are overrepresented in prisons comparative to their population size in the UK. I'd hazard a reasonable estimate that they're also overrepresented on the terror watch list too. My figures are for the proportion for their whole numbers as asked. e.g. 4 million Muslims, 14,500 currently in prison according to Google. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 6, 2024 9:26:57 GMT
You honestly believe that everyone who identifies as Muslim is dedicated to this? The same equivocation and straw-man once again. Notice I never used the terms 'every single' or 'everyone' yet you reply as if this is a specific claim i made. Btw the fact that gaining (or furthering) political power is a significant part of Muslim religious observance, is not on its own enough to ring loud alarm bells. The fact that a high proportion of Muslims take this duty seriously, is. The vast majority of Muslims will at least accept that someone who is attempting to further the political power of Islam (through fair means or foul) is acting in accordance with the Muslim faith and that he has a duty to support such efforts if he can. If you compare with Christianity - very few Christians would say that someone attempting to set up a totalitarian theocracy in the UK is acting in accordance with Christianity. The value system is different. No I asked a question, hence the question mark at the end of my sentence. You don't appear to have answered it. Instead you carry on talking about Muslims as if they are one monolithic block. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 6, 2024 9:29:52 GMT
Did someone, sometime wake up one morning and say to themselves: "You know, what this country really needs is four or five million Muslims. I'll raise the matter at the Cabinet meeting later today." Take a look at the Muslim world and ask yourself why would a person in the UK strongly want this, what possible motive could they have? |
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Post by wapentake on Mar 6, 2024 9:30:50 GMT
Happy Hornet you aren’t related to Alistair Campbell are you? He was adept at trying to mislead  |
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Post by Dan Dare on Mar 6, 2024 9:35:55 GMT
Did someone, sometime wake up one morning and say to themselves: "You know, what this country really needs is four or five million Muslims. I'll raise the matter at the Cabinet meeting later today." Take a look at the Muslim world and ask yourself why would a person in the UK strongly want this, what possible motive could they have? The only possible explanation is competitive altruism, a condition endemic amongst the managerial and opinion-forming classes, and followed blindly by their camp followers. Nobody could be so insanely self-destructive otherwise. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 6, 2024 9:40:01 GMT
The same equivocation and straw-man once again. Notice I never used the terms 'every single' or 'everyone' yet you reply as if this is a specific claim i made. Btw the fact that gaining (or furthering) political power is a significant part of Muslim religious observance, is not on its own enough to ring loud alarm bells. The fact that a high proportion of Muslims take this duty seriously, is. The vast majority of Muslims will at least accept that someone who is attempting to further the political power of Islam (through fair means or foul) is acting in accordance with the Muslim faith and that he has a duty to support such efforts if he can. If you compare with Christianity - very few Christians would say that someone attempting to set up a totalitarian theocracy in the UK is acting in accordance with Christianity. The value system is different. No I asked a question, hence the question mark at the end of my sentence. You don't appear to have answered it. Instead you carry on talking about Muslims as if they are one monolithic block. I've explained three times that the answer to that question (in the various forms you have presented it) is not important. 100.000% (everybody) is not need for my argument. However, you ask the question repeatedly to give an impression my argument requires it and as an attempt to force me to argue about what i'm saying rather than the topic. Basically, you are sulking. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 6, 2024 9:47:29 GMT
No I asked a question, hence the question mark at the end of my sentence. You don't appear to have answered it. Instead you carry on talking about Muslims as if they are one monolithic block. I've explained three times that the answer to that question (in the various forms you have presented it) is not important. 100.000% (everybody) is not need for my argument. However, you ask the question repeatedly to give an impression my argument requires it and as an attempt to force me to argue about what i'm saying rather than the topic. Basically, you are sulking. Surely it's profoundly important? The difference between 1% Vs 99% of Muslims acting and believing the way you describe is huge and completely changes the whole dynamic of the debate. Saying "Muslims believe this, Muslims want to do this" and then saying it's irrelevant if it's all of them or how many of them strikes me as intellectually dishonest. Imagine if a Muslim was to come on here and start talking on behalf of all non-muslims and projecting all sorts of nefarious behavioural traits onto them. |
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Post by Orac on Mar 6, 2024 9:59:32 GMT
Take a look at the Muslim world and ask yourself why would a person in the UK strongly want this, what possible motive could they have? The only possible explanation is competitive altruism, a condition endemic amongst the managerial and opinion-forming classes, and followed blindly by their camp followers. Nobody could be so insanely self-destructive otherwise. Here is something disturbing a ran across recently. Apparently, women have a natural mechanism to chemically detect genetic similarity to themselves in others. It's the trigger for certain emotional responses (i hope you can see how this might work re children and nurturing responses). As far as can be made out, the mechanism is completely blocked by the contraceptive pill. |
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Post by piglet on Mar 6, 2024 11:39:07 GMT
In my struggle to make sense of the world i have tried to put some sense regarding immigration from countries that dont share our values, like Muslims. I am a first generation immigrant so can comment, that i do relate to my mothers nationality, Italy, and love the place and people.
But i also know its weaknesses as i am british.
Muslims that come here are inflenced by british society, that their firmly held beliefs about politics and society, from the old country are diluted.
This is even more marked in their first generation offspring.
Then, when they go back to their country of origin, they seee things differently, that the flaws in their society become sharper. Indeed, when they go back they are like secret agents for the west, they dont feel part of the old country, or part of this one.
My cousins actively support Italy in the world cup, with the Italian flag hanging outside their bedroom window which i fiond shocking, sometimes it doesnt work. Another factor is that both of theem are complete morons.
Change cuts both ways, the immigrants that come here dilute the old country, or so id like to think, probably not, if it does its in a minor way.
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Post by Orac on Mar 6, 2024 12:46:37 GMT
I've explained three times that the answer to that question (in the various forms you have presented it) is not important. 100.000% (everybody) is not need for my argument. However, you ask the question repeatedly to give an impression my argument requires it and as an attempt to force me to argue about what i'm saying rather than the topic. Basically, you are sulking. Surely it's profoundly important? The difference between 1% Vs 99% of Muslims acting and believing the way you describe is huge and completely changes the whole dynamic of the debate. Saying "Muslims believe this, Muslims want to do this" and then saying it's irrelevant if it's all of them or how many of them strikes me as intellectually dishonest. My argument wasn't that they all thought anything, it was that their society employed a methodology. As far as our interests are concerned, there is no difference between 100% and 99% , or indeed 30%. The real problem is you view our interests as having zero value. Your attempts to keep ramming at an irrelevant 'point' that isn't a point are clearly intellectually dishonest. |
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Post by happyhornet on Mar 6, 2024 13:19:05 GMT
Surely it's profoundly important? The difference between 1% Vs 99% of Muslims acting and believing the way you describe is huge and completely changes the whole dynamic of the debate. Saying "Muslims believe this, Muslims want to do this" and then saying it's irrelevant if it's all of them or how many of them strikes me as intellectually dishonest. My argument wasn't that they all thought anything, it was that their society employed a methodology. As far as our interests are concerned, there is no difference between 100% and 99% , or indeed 30%. The real problem is you view our interests as having zero value. Your attempts to keep ramming at an irrelevant 'point' that isn't a point are clearly intellectually dishonest. How does "their society" employ their methodology in the UK? Who is in charge of it? How is the employment of their methodology coordinated? What % of UK Muslims are employed in the deployment of this methodology? Is there a non-muslim methodology that I should be contributing to? Only work and the family keep me pretty busy so I'm not sure I could devote myself fully to the non-muslim methodology. |
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Post by sandypine on Mar 6, 2024 13:20:44 GMT
No he referred to the aggregate affect on society. We can measure that to some degree by several specific items. Proportion of Muslims in prison as a proportion to the their numbers in the whole population. Muslims responsible for terrorist activity proportional to their numbers in the whole population. Number of Muslims on the terrorist watchlist proportional to their numbers in the whole population The number of Muslims economically inactive as a proportion of their numbers in the whole population.. Then we can move worldwide, the relative interaction of Muslims with other religions when Muslims are in power and when Muslims are not in power. A much more complicated undertaking but many times it has been studied and found to be a problem as in:- Banda Aceh in Indonesia where Muslims and non Muslims are subject to beatings for moral crimes against the Shariah Egypt where Coptic Christians are subject to violence and intimidation and laws made against them. Pakistan where non Muslims are at risk of beatings and death if they are accused of blasphemy against Islam. Bangladesh where Christians and their churches are regularly attacked. Kosovo where Christian churches regularly suffer arson attacks. These are clear measures of what Muslims bring with them as a group, that is not all Muslims, nor is it necessarily a high percentage of Muslims but in aggregate it amounts to a problem for the host country that receives Muslim immigration over and above the problems one may expect with any group. "Proportion of Muslims in prison as a proportion to the their numbers in the whole population." Less than 1%. "Muslims responsible for terrorist activity proportional to their numbers in the whole population." Less than 1% of 1%. "Number of Muslims on the terrorist watchlist proportional to their numbers in the whole population" Around 1% "The number of Muslims economically inactive as a proportion of their numbers in the whole population." 41.9% I did not make myself really clear in that post but now I will clarify. In the prison population Muslims make up 15% of that population yet in the general population they are only 5%. So they aresignificantly over represented in crime. There are over 30,000 Muslims on the terrorist watchlist. Which is supposedly over 40,000 strong so they make up over 70% of that watchlist yet are only 5% of the population so significantly over represented there as well. The proportion of Muslims economically inactive is about 40% but in the overall population is about 22%. As regards Muslims women of working age the number is 68% when in the rest of the population it is just over 30%. As regards societal problems Muslims in aggregate contribute more to those problems than any other group by a significant amount. |
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