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Post by Einhorn on Nov 21, 2022 17:11:03 GMT
Cheers. The poll I mentioned above related to terrorist offences. Your poll refers to all categories of murder, but it's still interesting. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 21, 2022 17:12:26 GMT
When was the last poll on the death penalty taken? No idea. But it was pretty high to my recall. If we have a pretty gruesome murder then polls are taken and to reinstate the death penalty comes out pretty high. I seem to recall it was at 80% around the turn of the century. The strange thing is despite there being a strong democratic wish for it no referendum was forthcoming. I do not recall continuous complaining that democracy was being usurped. I suspect, and correct me if I am wrong, but it is only things that you support where poll majorities matter. Otherwise the rest can take a hike. A link is provided to a recent poll above. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 21, 2022 17:13:37 GMT
No idea. But it was pretty high to my recall. If we have a pretty gruesome murder then polls are taken and to reinstate the death penalty comes out pretty high. I seem to recall it was at 80% around the turn of the century. The strange thing is despite there being a strong democratic wish for it no referendum was forthcoming. I do not recall continuous complaining that democracy was being usurped. I suspect, and correct me if I am wrong, but it is only things that you support where poll majorities matter. Otherwise the rest can take a hike. A link is provided to a recent poll above. Current. Gallup paints a fairly interesting historical picture. news.gallup.com/poll/1606/Death-Penalty.aspx |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 21, 2022 17:14:50 GMT
When was the last poll on the death penalty taken? . I suspect, and correct me if I am wrong, but it is only things that you support where poll majorities matter. Otherwise the rest can take a hike. That's true, but then I have an irredeemably flawed character. But this isn't about me. It's about democracy. So much of the Brexiter position has been based on 'democracy' over the last 6 years, I wouldn't like to see you let yourselves down when your own commitment to that ideal is tested. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 21, 2022 17:23:05 GMT
. I suspect, and correct me if I am wrong, but it is only things that you support where poll majorities matter. Otherwise the rest can take a hike. That's true, but then I have an irredeemably flawed character. But this isn't about me. It's about democracy. So much of the Brexiter position has been based on 'democracy' over the last 6 years, I wouldn't like to see you let yourselves down when your own commitment to that ideal is tested. Which brings me back to the question. Why select only one policy area to have a referendum on when a poll shows an increasing level of support. If it is about democracy then the issue is immaterial and all polls should have attention paid to them. If it is about the EU then democracy is not suffering as the route of the last referendum on this issue was voting a party into power that promised one and then having one. Otherwise referenda will proliferate and we will be chopping and changing positions with amazing speed especially if results are close and most especially if ongoing campaigns are at work. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 21, 2022 17:31:21 GMT
That's true, but then I have an irredeemably flawed character. But this isn't about me. It's about democracy. So much of the Brexiter position has been based on 'democracy' over the last 6 years, I wouldn't like to see you let yourselves down when your own commitment to that ideal is tested. Which brings me back to the question. Why select only one policy area to have a referendum on when a poll shows an increasing level of support. If it is about democracy then the issue is immaterial and all polls should have attention paid to them. If it is about the EU then democracy is not suffering as the route of the last referendum on this issue was voting a party into power that promised one and then having one. Otherwise referenda will proliferate and we will be chopping and changing positions with amazing speed especially if results are close and most especially if ongoing campaigns are at work. Will that be your position when the polls are continually showing a healthy majority (above 60%) for intensified reengagement with the EU? Will your position be: well, there can't be a referendum on this issue because if we hold a series of polls on the death penalty we might find that there is a majority for a referendum on that too? |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 21, 2022 18:26:43 GMT
Which brings me back to the question. Why select only one policy area to have a referendum on when a poll shows an increasing level of support. If it is about democracy then the issue is immaterial and all polls should have attention paid to them. If it is about the EU then democracy is not suffering as the route of the last referendum on this issue was voting a party into power that promised one and then having one. Otherwise referenda will proliferate and we will be chopping and changing positions with amazing speed especially if results are close and most especially if ongoing campaigns are at work. Will that be your position when the polls are continually showing a healthy majority (above 60%) for intensified reengagement with the EU? Will your position be: well, there can't be a referendum on this issue because if we hold a series of polls on the death penalty we might find that there is a majority for a referendum on that too? No because I am not the one bemoaning the lack of democracy, you are. My position is that any return to the EU question should be on the same lines as the wya the question was settled in the first place. A party stands on a platform of offering a referendum at a general election (and if the polls indicate they have a case why should they not) and once voted into government they can deliver said referendum. That way the polls are taken heed of and the same could apply to a referendum on the death penalty. So far no party has. They have offered plenty for decades on immigration but ignore it when in government. That would be interesting if a referendum was promised and it did not materialise. Leavers have been there |
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Post by Steve on Nov 21, 2022 18:26:46 GMT
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 21, 2022 18:33:12 GMT
Will that be your position when the polls are continually showing a healthy majority (above 60%) for intensified reengagement with the EU? Will your position be: well, there can't be a referendum on this issue because if we hold a series of polls on the death penalty we might find that there is a majority for a referendum on that too? No because I am not the one bemoaning the lack of democracy, you are. My position is that any return to the EU question should be on the same lines as the wya the question was settled in the first place. A party stands on a platform of offering a referendum at a general election (and if the polls indicate they have a case why should they not) and once voted into government they can deliver said referendum. That way the polls are taken heed of and the same could apply to a referendum on the death penalty. So far no party has. They have offered plenty for decades on immigration but ignore it when in government. That would be interesting if a referendum was promised and it did not materialise. Leavers have been there That's quite arbitrary, isn't it? You will only accept a referendum if a referendum was in an election manifesto. Still, I don't suppose it matters. |
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Post by bancroft on Nov 21, 2022 18:49:25 GMT
The pundits got it wrong in 2016 and blamed it on shy Brexiters.
No point in reversing anything until the Scots have their independence referendum and remember their first referendum was in 2014 before Brexit.
You see they voted to remain so lets see if they will pull out, if not then a boost for the Remain campaign.
I think the shy Brexit vote is still strong and is still the majority in England annoyed at the boat people arrivals as well as ongoing high levels of immigration.
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Post by sandypine on Nov 21, 2022 18:51:28 GMT
No because I am not the one bemoaning the lack of democracy, you are. My position is that any return to the EU question should be on the same lines as the wya the question was settled in the first place. A party stands on a platform of offering a referendum at a general election (and if the polls indicate they have a case why should they not) and once voted into government they can deliver said referendum. That way the polls are taken heed of and the same could apply to a referendum on the death penalty. So far no party has. They have offered plenty for decades on immigration but ignore it when in government. That would be interesting if a referendum was promised and it did not materialise. Leavers have been there That's quite arbitrary, isn't it? You will only accept a referendum if a referendum was in an election manifesto. Still, I don't suppose it matters. Where do you get accept from. You are demanding one becasue of polls and I am saying the best method to get one is vote for a government that will give you one. It is not a case of acceptance it is a case of being consistent. About ten years ago I strongly wanted to leave the EU and I was told that the best way to Leave was to vote for a party that offered that as a policy. Fair enough. According to all the polls Remain should have won handsomely and this goes to show how inaccurate polls can be as a measure of the electorate's wishes. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 21, 2022 18:54:46 GMT
That's quite arbitrary, isn't it? You will only accept a referendum if a referendum was in an election manifesto. Still, I don't suppose it matters. Where do you get accept from. You are demanding one becasue of polls and I am saying the best method to get one is vote for a government that will give you one. It is not a case of acceptance it is a case of being consistent. About ten years ago I strongly wanted to leave the EU and I was told that the best way to Leave was to vote for a party that offered that as a policy. Fair enough. According to all the polls Remain should have won handsomely and this goes to show how inaccurate polls can be as a measure of the electorate's wishes. It pays to advertise, Sandy. It also pays to break the campaigning rules. Never mind. Nobody's going to give two shits what either of us think. But pressure is going to mount as dissatisfaction with Brexit increases. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 21, 2022 18:55:18 GMT
The pundits got it wrong in 2016 and blamed it on shy Brexiters. No point in reversing anything until the Scots have their independence referendum and remember their first referendum was in 2014 before Brexit. You see they voted to remain so lets see if they will pull out, if not then a boost for the Remain campaign. I think the shy Brexit vote is still strong and is still the majority in England annoyed at the boat people arrivals as well as ongoing high levels of immigration. At the ballot box people have to make a true decision, when a pollster calls they can tell all sorts of tales and it seems they do. If Scotland leave as an Independent nation then England and whoever else is in the Union will have a stronger leave vote. |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 21, 2022 18:58:27 GMT
Where do you get accept from. You are demanding one becasue of polls and I am saying the best method to get one is vote for a government that will give you one. It is not a case of acceptance it is a case of being consistent. About ten years ago I strongly wanted to leave the EU and I was told that the best way to Leave was to vote for a party that offered that as a policy. Fair enough. According to all the polls Remain should have won handsomely and this goes to show how inaccurate polls can be as a measure of the electorate's wishes. It pays to advertise, Sandy. It also pays to break the campaigning rules. Never mind. Nobody's going to give two shits what either of us think. But pressure is going to mount as dissatisfaction with Brexit increases. And the Remain campaign has continued apace since 2016 well funded and well supported by those in positions to put their case. With the general support of the 'impartial' news services. |
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Post by Einhorn on Nov 21, 2022 19:02:40 GMT
It pays to advertise, Sandy. It also pays to break the campaigning rules. Never mind. Nobody's going to give two shits what either of us think. But pressure is going to mount as dissatisfaction with Brexit increases. And the Remain campaign has continued apace since 2016 well funded and well supported by those in positions to put their case. With the general support of the 'impartial' news services. Yes, many Remainers are quite upbeat at the moment. |
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