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Post by Einhorn on Jan 24, 2024 17:38:46 GMT
I'd suggest that is at the very least debatable. If you'd written 'most western countries' that would certainly be unarguable but I suspect there are many more countries outside that small circle that style themselves as democracies that have not adopted a 'liberal model'. Maybe. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 24, 2024 18:22:00 GMT
They have a right to try - and as we currently see in Gaza, Israel has a right to respond. It's rather ironic that you bang on about these 'fundamental rights' (whatever they are) and at the same time wish to remove the right of people to decide for themselves who they want to vote for.. Bizarre.. Well, you would think that. You're a majoritarian populist. A liberal democrat doesn't see a government that attacks fundamental rights (killing, incarcerating on a whim, etc.) as legitimate democracy. For a liberal democrat, the very purpose of democracy is to protect the weak from the strong. So, a government that kills or incarcerates, or otherwise denies fundamental rights to a minority is not a democratic government, even if a tyrannical majority voted for them. 'It's the will of the majority' is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for atrocities and fundamental abuse of basic rights. That said, majoritarianism is still recognised as a form of democracy, albeit a very dubious one (from the viewpoint of a liberal democrat). You can support a far-right racist party like the AfD and still claim to be a democrat. Your problem is that those who oppose them and their foul far-right policies are also democrats. So if the people are not going to be allowed to decide who they can vote for who gets to decide what these 'fundamental rights' are? Does someone come down from Mount Sinai with them carved in tablets of stone? |
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 24, 2024 18:27:13 GMT
Well, you would think that. You're a majoritarian populist. A liberal democrat doesn't see a government that attacks fundamental rights (killing, incarcerating on a whim, etc.) as legitimate democracy. For a liberal democrat, the very purpose of democracy is to protect the weak from the strong. So, a government that kills or incarcerates, or otherwise denies fundamental rights to a minority is not a democratic government, even if a tyrannical majority voted for them. 'It's the will of the majority' is not a get-out-of-jail-free card for atrocities and fundamental abuse of basic rights. That said, majoritarianism is still recognised as a form of democracy, albeit a very dubious one (from the viewpoint of a liberal democrat). You can support a far-right racist party like the AfD and still claim to be a democrat. Your problem is that those who oppose them and their foul far-right policies are also democrats. So if the people are not going to be allowed to decide who they can vote for who gets to decide what these 'fundamental rights' are? Does someone come down from Mount Sinai with them carved in tablets of stone? How have you decided that murder, rape, theft, etc., are wrong? Where do your ideas of right and wrong come from? Most people understand that a government that uses torture against its citizens, or arbitrarily discriminates against them is wrong, without recourse to an external source. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 24, 2024 18:32:35 GMT
Can’t see anything in AfD that reflects the German Nazis .
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 24, 2024 18:33:03 GMT
So if the people are not going to be allowed to decide who they can vote for who gets to decide what these 'fundamental rights' are? Does someone come down from Mount Sinai with them carved in tablets of stone? How have you decided that murder, rape, theft, etc., are wrong? Where do your ideas of right and wrong come from? Most people understand that a government that uses torture against its citizens, or arbitrarily discriminates against them is wrong, without recourse to an external source. Murder and rape against infidels is perfectly legal in some Islamic societies - if it's not the people who decide what is right or wrong who does decide? You keep talking about 'fundamental rights' - is there a 'right' to an abortion? |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 24, 2024 18:49:14 GMT
Germany is wrestling with a potentially explosive debate over whether to ban the far-right party Alternative for Germany, or AfD.
AfD are not 'far right'. They are an alternative to pro EU, pro immigration left wing parties. The problem is lefties insist anyone who is not left wing is 'far right'. German president Steinmeier has been looking to ban AfD for some time, not because AfD are 'far right', but because AfD like other centre right parties around Europe are becoming more and more popular, and that's because people are sick of mass immigration, and the EU know it. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 24, 2024 18:50:10 GMT
How have you decided that murder, rape, theft, etc., are wrong? Where do your ideas of right and wrong come from? Most people understand that a government that uses torture against its citizens, or arbitrarily discriminates against them is wrong, without recourse to an external source. Murder and rape against infidels is perfectly legal in some Islamic societies - if it's not the people who decide what is right or wrong who does decide? You keep talking about 'fundamental rights' - is there a 'right' to an abortion? It's sufficient that you, as a majoritarian populist, think that it is okay for the majority to do as it pleases to a minority. Majoritarian populists, like you, think that 51% can legitimately kill, incarcerate, torture, the other 49%. Your current position appears to be: well, yes, we do think that it is okay for the majority to do as it pleases to the minority. If the majority wishes to torture the minority, that's fine, because there is no way of objectively determining right or wrong. The liberal democrat, on the other hand, says no, democracy exists to protect the weak from the strong. A government elected by a majority for the purpose of oppressing the minority is not a democratic government. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 24, 2024 18:53:19 GMT
Isn't it weird how people who pretend to be against fascism, fascistically endorse the total suppression of democracy? Was it Churchill who said "The fascists of the future will call themselves anti-fascists." Seems fairly accurate to me. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 24, 2024 18:54:09 GMT
Murder and rape against infidels is perfectly legal in some Islamic societies - if it's not the people who decide what is right or wrong who does decide? You keep talking about 'fundamental rights' - is there a 'right' to an abortion? It's sufficient that you, as a majoritarian populist, think that it is okay for the majority to do as it pleases to a minority. Majoritarian populists, like you, think that 51% can legitimately kill, incarcerate, torture, the other 49%. Your current position appears to be: well, yes, we do think that it is okay for the majority to do as it pleases to the minority. If the majority wishes to torture the minority, that's fine, because there is no way of objectively determining right or wrong. The liberal democrat, on the other hand, says no, democracy exists to protect the weak from the strong. A government elected by a majority for the purpose of oppressing the minority is not a democratic government. Cut out the rhetoric and answer the question - is abortion one of your 'fundamental rights' and who decided? |
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 24, 2024 19:01:12 GMT
It's sufficient that you, as a majoritarian populist, think that it is okay for the majority to do as it pleases to a minority. Majoritarian populists, like you, think that 51% can legitimately kill, incarcerate, torture, the other 49%. Your current position appears to be: well, yes, we do think that it is okay for the majority to do as it pleases to the minority. If the majority wishes to torture the minority, that's fine, because there is no way of objectively determining right or wrong. The liberal democrat, on the other hand, says no, democracy exists to protect the weak from the strong. A government elected by a majority for the purpose of oppressing the minority is not a democratic government. Cut out the rhetoric and answer the question - is abortion one of your 'fundamental rights' and who decided? LOL! Where did you get the bullshit notion that the question whether it's okay for a majority to make laws that would see it 'legitimately' kill or torture a minority hinges on whether abortion is right or wrong? It doesn't. Your concept of democracy, majoritarian populism, legitimises murder and torture where it is sanctioned by a majority. It is the opposite of the liberal democracy practised in most Western nations. You can ponder whether abortion is right or wrong yourself; it won't make the slightest bit of difference to those who believe that state murder and torture are wrong and undemocratic, even if a majority voted for it. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 24, 2024 19:09:50 GMT
Germany is wrestling with a potentially explosive debate over whether to ban the far-right party Alternative for Germany, or AfD.
AfD are not 'far right'. They are an alternative to pro EU, pro immigration left wing parties. The problem is lefties insist anyone who is not left wing is 'far right'. German president Steinmeier has been looking to ban AfD for some time, not because AfD are 'far right', but because AfD like other centre right parties around Europe are becoming more and more popular, and that's because people are sick of mass immigration, and the EU know it. LOL!!! Even the Daily Mail describes them as far-right! www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9322065/German-far-right-AfD-party-surveillance-Nazi-era.html |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 24, 2024 19:12:20 GMT
AfD are not 'far right'. They are an alternative to pro EU, pro immigration left wing parties. The problem is lefties insist anyone who is not left wing is 'far right'. German president Steinmeier has been looking to ban AfD for some time, not because AfD are 'far right', but because AfD like other centre right parties around Europe are becoming more and more popular, and that's because people are sick of mass immigration, and the EU know it. LOL!!! Even the Daily Mail describes them as far-right! www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9322065/German-far-right-AfD-party-surveillance-Nazi-era.htmlHilarious. Einy singing the praises of the Daily Mail. Wonders never cease. |
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 24, 2024 19:14:32 GMT
Hilarious. Einy singing the praises of the Daily Mail. Wonders never cease. If I had said, 'The Daily Mail says they're fascists', I would be impliedly suggesting that The Daily Mail is a legitimate source. I didn't. I said:' Even The Daily Mail ...' The word even puts a completely different complexion on it. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 24, 2024 19:17:37 GMT
AfD are not 'far right'. They are an alternative to pro EU, pro immigration left wing parties. The problem is lefties insist anyone who is not left wing is 'far right'. German president Steinmeier has been looking to ban AfD for some time, not because AfD are 'far right', but because AfD like other centre right parties around Europe are becoming more and more popular, and that's because people are sick of mass immigration, and the EU know it. LOL!!! Even the Daily Mail describes them as far-right! www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9322065/German-far-right-AfD-party-surveillance-Nazi-era.htmlYes but what specific policies make them far right, does anyone know? |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 24, 2024 19:18:32 GMT
The a daily mail sometimes describes things inaccurately.
So I’ve been told .
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