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Post by sandypine on Jan 24, 2024 13:29:05 GMT
The crown was an Angevin ruler in England, the Crown is not the people and the people are not the crown until we arrive at parliament post civil war. After all the English are the Anglo-Saxons and at the time the courts and the rule was Norman/Angevin, or French if you like. Ireland is widely regarded , by the Irish , non Irish and most historians as Englands first colony.
First colony
Ireland was, after all, England’s first colony.
For more than 700 years, the Irish lived under and alongside the English, and later British, Empire.
Being the first colony, Ireland was where the British imperial project and its racist policies were formulated and then exported to other parts of the accumulating empire – Canada, India, Ceylon, for example.Words such as “ethnic cleansing”, “racially inferior”, and “segregation” pepper texts on the British conquest of Ireland at the behest of royalty.
www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/9/14/viewing-king-charles-from-british-empires-first-colony-ireland#:~:text=England%27s%20first%20colony.-,For%20more%20than%20700%20years%2C%20the%20Irish%20lived%20under%20and,India%2C%20Ceylon%2C%20for%20example.
colony
a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country.Well that begs the question what is a country? |
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2024 8:45:57 GMT
plese see my above posts where these points have been addressed. Well they really have not. I will try it a different way. They have. Please re read my previous posts. Using the quote tags , please show me where I have asked or suggested others admire scotland? I have absolutely zero , zilch , nada interest or give one ounce of fuck who does or doesist admire scotland. I speak for myself. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2024 8:51:06 GMT
I know what you said.I didnt say Brexit was a devolved issue. Your implication was one entity , one vote. majority decision , we all have to like it or lump it. .....and its been pointed out time and gain , by three different forum members including myself ,your own Westminster government didnt agree with you and let Gibraltar and Northern Ireland de facto remain contrary to your one entity one vote rule. So clearly it wasn't a single union decision as you put it. And I have said that is wrong, certainly for NI. Gibraltar is an overseas territory so I am not clear on that however it should have left in total as well. I am not responsible for the half hearted application of Brexit by those who would have preferred to have stayed in. In 1975 Shetland and the Western Isles voted No, should they have been allowed to go their own way or were they part of the Union? dear oh dear. It doesn't matter what you personally think is right or wrong regarding Northern Ireland. The point is , you keep telling me Brexit was a `British ` vote ( used to diminish scotland 62% remain vote) so Britain had to leave. When your own government , and two uk prime ministers have enacted policy and legislation that completely blows that argument out of the water , is shows how pathetic your stance actually is. The reason this isn't a comparable argument is that we currently have areas of the indivisible (according to your wisdom) dissented kingdom and overseas territory that voted against the wishes of the majority population in England and Wales , and got to remain. Whats good for the goose..... |
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Post by thomas on Jan 26, 2024 8:53:13 GMT
Ireland is widely regarded , by the Irish , non Irish and most historians as Englands first colony.
First colony
Ireland was, after all, England’s first colony.
For more than 700 years, the Irish lived under and alongside the English, and later British, Empire.
Being the first colony, Ireland was where the British imperial project and its racist policies were formulated and then exported to other parts of the accumulating empire – Canada, India, Ceylon, for example.Words such as “ethnic cleansing”, “racially inferior”, and “segregation” pepper texts on the British conquest of Ireland at the behest of royalty.
www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/9/14/viewing-king-charles-from-british-empires-first-colony-ireland#:~:text=England%27s%20first%20colony.-,For%20more%20than%20700%20years%2C%20the%20Irish%20lived%20under%20and,India%2C%20Ceylon%2C%20for%20example.
colony
a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country.Well that begs the question what is a country? Clearly you have great difficulty with the meaning of words in the English language. I refer you to a dictionary . The definition of Ireland as a country is nothing but a side swerve. That isn't under discussion. What is under discussion is Ireland being an English colony. Can you refute that? |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 26, 2024 18:23:50 GMT
And I have said that is wrong, certainly for NI. Gibraltar is an overseas territory so I am not clear on that however it should have left in total as well. I am not responsible for the half hearted application of Brexit by those who would have preferred to have stayed in. In 1975 Shetland and the Western Isles voted No, should they have been allowed to go their own way or were they part of the Union? dear oh dear. It doesn't matter what you personally think is right or wrong regarding Northern Ireland. The point is , you keep telling me Brexit was a `British ` vote ( used to diminish scotland 62% remain vote) so Britain had to leave. When your own government , and two uk prime ministers have enacted policy and legislation that completely blows that argument out of the water , is shows how pathetic your stance actually is. The reason this isn't a comparable argument is that we currently have areas of the indivisible (according to your wisdom) dissented kingdom and overseas territory that voted against the wishes of the majority population in England and Wales , and got to remain. Whats good for the goose..... My stance is that NI should have been taken along with the UK. Once again I am not responsible for the mealy mouthed half hearted efforts of those trying to enact Brexit but believing in Remain. My position is clear. I keep on saying it is intrinsically wrong and you continue to use it as though I agree with it. One thing though Scotland does not have a GFA. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 26, 2024 19:42:22 GMT
Well that begs the question what is a country? Clearly you have great difficulty with the meaning of words in the English language. I refer you to a dictionary . The definition of Ireland as a country is nothing but a side swerve. That isn't under discussion. What is under discussion is Ireland being an English colony. Can you refute that? Hardly a side swerve you used a definition of colonialism which used country as a part of that definition. Yet the invasion of Ireland was largely in the first instance a Norman/Angevin/Welsh undertaking at the request of an Irish Chieftain and then a Norman/Angevin King consolidated that position. The Anglo-Saxons were at best also rans but the names on those crossing to Ireland largely exclude Anglo-Saxons from their number. Henry the second was a Plantagenet, although some dispute that, and he was Angevin as the House of Plantagenet arose in Anjou. I am not disputing any right of any group to be a country but you are seeking some form of colonisation by England of Ireland when the process in the 12th century was a very complicated affair in which the Papacy played no small part and Kingdoms and countries were at best uncertain in their boundaries or clear in their affiliations and independence. You wish it to be clear cut England bad everyone else suffered at England's hands, that is baloney. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 26, 2024 19:43:49 GMT
Well they really have not. I will try it a different way. They have. Please re read my previous posts. Using the quote tags , please show me where I have asked or suggested others admire scotland? I have absolutely zero , zilch , nada interest or give one ounce of fuck who does or doesist admire scotland. I speak for myself. When you used the word 'proud' and you did use the word proud. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 27, 2024 11:35:56 GMT
dear oh dear. It doesn't matter what you personally think is right or wrong regarding Northern Ireland. The point is , you keep telling me Brexit was a `British ` vote ( used to diminish scotland 62% remain vote) so Britain had to leave. When your own government , and two uk prime ministers have enacted policy and legislation that completely blows that argument out of the water , is shows how pathetic your stance actually is. The reason this isn't a comparable argument is that we currently have areas of the indivisible (according to your wisdom) dissented kingdom and overseas territory that voted against the wishes of the majority population in England and Wales , and got to remain. Whats good for the goose..... My stance is that NI should have been taken along with the UK. Once again I am not responsible for the mealy mouthed half hearted efforts of those trying to enact Brexit but believing in Remain. My position is clear. I keep on saying it is intrinsically wrong and you continue to use it as though I agree with it. One thing though Scotland does not have a GFA. your position of Northern Ireland isn't in question. Whats in question is the clear violation of your own` Brexit was a British referendum so Britain had to leave `argument regarding scotland. Clearly , that isn't the case. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 27, 2024 11:42:15 GMT
Clearly you have great difficulty with the meaning of words in the English language. I refer you to a dictionary . The definition of Ireland as a country is nothing but a side swerve. That isn't under discussion. What is under discussion is Ireland being an English colony. Can you refute that? Hardly a side swerve you used a definition of colonialism which used country as a part of that definition. Yet the invasion of Ireland was largely in the first instance a Norman/Angevin/Welsh undertaking at the request of an Irish Chieftain and then a Norman/Angevin King consolidated that position. The Anglo-Saxons were at best also rans but the names on those crossing to Ireland largely exclude Anglo-Saxons from their number. Henry the second was a Plantagenet, although some dispute that, and he was Angevin as the House of Plantagenet arose in Anjou. I am not disputing any right of any group to be a country but you are seeking some form of colonisation by England of Ireland when the process in the 12th century was a very complicated affair in which the Papacy played no small part and Kingdoms and countries were at best uncertain in their boundaries or clear in their affiliations and independence. You wish it to be clear cut England bad everyone else suffered at England's hands, that is baloney. sandy , you are back waffling again. I said ireland was an English colony. Clearly that was the case. Ireland was invaded , and settled by the English elite numerous times over the centuries , and the very basis of the northern Irish issue today , and the thirty years of troubles , clearly has its roots in plantation colonists. Waffling on about saxons , angevins and all the rest is just more guff you are littering the thread with . The basis of English rule and claim to rule over ireland the past 8 centuries was the treaty of Windsor , where the Irish high king had to swear allegiance to the king of England in a shotgun marriage. doesn't matter if the guy spoke French or came from mars... deep misunderstanding of history and of course a misunderstanding based on an anglicised history. The Irish chieftain in question had no legitimate claim to his petty kingship , as he had been disposed of under the tanist system of the Irish brehon laws. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 27, 2024 11:43:21 GMT
They have. Please re read my previous posts. Using the quote tags , please show me where I have asked or suggested others admire scotland? I have absolutely zero , zilch , nada interest or give one ounce of fuck who does or doesist admire scotland. I speak for myself. When you used the word 'proud' and you did use the word proud. its almost like you are speaking another language to me . Are my replies appearing on the computer screen to you? |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 27, 2024 13:20:31 GMT
Hardly a side swerve you used a definition of colonialism which used country as a part of that definition. Yet the invasion of Ireland was largely in the first instance a Norman/Angevin/Welsh undertaking at the request of an Irish Chieftain and then a Norman/Angevin King consolidated that position. The Anglo-Saxons were at best also rans but the names on those crossing to Ireland largely exclude Anglo-Saxons from their number. Henry the second was a Plantagenet, although some dispute that, and he was Angevin as the House of Plantagenet arose in Anjou. I am not disputing any right of any group to be a country but you are seeking some form of colonisation by England of Ireland when the process in the 12th century was a very complicated affair in which the Papacy played no small part and Kingdoms and countries were at best uncertain in their boundaries or clear in their affiliations and independence. You wish it to be clear cut England bad everyone else suffered at England's hands, that is baloney. sandy , you are back waffling again. I said ireland was an English colony. Clearly that was the case. Ireland was invaded , and settled by the English elite numerous times over the centuries , and the very basis of the northern Irish issue today , and the thirty years of troubles , clearly has its roots in plantation colonists. Waffling on about saxons , angevins and all the rest is just more guff you are littering the thread with . The basis of English rule and claim to rule over ireland the past 8 centuries was the treaty of Windsor , where the Irish high king had to swear allegiance to the king of England in a shotgun marriage. doesn't matter if the guy spoke French or came from mars... deep misunderstanding of history and of course a misunderstanding based on an anglicised history. The Irish chieftain in question had no legitimate claim to his petty kingship , as he had been disposed of under the tanist system of the Irish brehon laws. Well England was a Norman/Angevin colony after all England was invaded and colonised by Normans who took control of the Crown and the aristocracy. So it was a Norman colony that invaded Ireland and it was Norman/Angevin/Welsh settlers that moved beyond the Pale. As the colonised then the Anglo-Saxons have little or no culpability for the actions of a usurper crown. It matters little the legitimacy of any claim as it was an Irishman that asked for assistance from the Norman Crown against those with whom he was in dispute and this general action was supported by the Papacy and the Catholic Church was a very strong arbiter of what what was 'legitimate'. History is full of such actions. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 27, 2024 13:26:59 GMT
sandy , you are back waffling again. I said ireland was an English colony. Clearly that was the case. Ireland was invaded , and settled by the English elite numerous times over the centuries , and the very basis of the northern Irish issue today , and the thirty years of troubles , clearly has its roots in plantation colonists. Waffling on about saxons , angevins and all the rest is just more guff you are littering the thread with . The basis of English rule and claim to rule over ireland the past 8 centuries was the treaty of Windsor , where the Irish high king had to swear allegiance to the king of England in a shotgun marriage. doesn't matter if the guy spoke French or came from mars... deep misunderstanding of history and of course a misunderstanding based on an anglicised history. The Irish chieftain in question had no legitimate claim to his petty kingship , as he had been disposed of under the tanist system of the Irish brehon laws. Well England was a Norman/Angevin colony after all England was invaded and colonised by Normans who took control of the Crown and the aristocracy. So it was a Norman colony that invaded Ireland and it was Norman/Angevin/Welsh settlers that moved beyond the Pale. As the colonised then the Anglo-Saxons have little or no culpability for the actions of a usurper crown. It matters little the legitimacy of any claim as it was an Irishman that asked for assistance from the Norman Crown against those with whom he was in dispute and this general action was supported by the Papacy and the Catholic Church was a very strong arbiter of what what was 'legitimate'. History is full of such actions. We know all that sandy. The English king was an anglo Norman , just as the present English king is a saxe Coburg gotta , a German by family descent. The English crown hasn't had an English family in charge since that wee guy who got his eye taken out at Hastings. What matters is the family name , and bloodline , not where you are born. Whats you excuse for ireland being an English colony under Henry 8ths Tudor re invasions , or Mary tudors plantations of English colonists ? Dermott mcmurrough was king of Leinster , not ireland. He was deposed under Irish law , had no legitimate claim over Leinster , let alone ireland , and is merely a puerile and poorly made excuse for legitimising English and anglo Norman invasions of the island of ireland. its guff , which Irish weans could pick apart. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 27, 2024 13:28:23 GMT
When you used the word 'proud' and you did use the word proud. its almost like you are speaking another language to me . Are my replies appearing on the computer screen to you? You gave the definition of pride, I was only asking from whom do you perceive to accept admiration which is an intrinsic part of the definition of pride. You cannot be proud of something that has no outstanding features over others. It is like being proud of being number 26, it has no meaning unless you perceive in some way it is something special and you believe that specialness is perceived by others in some way. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 27, 2024 13:35:04 GMT
its almost like you are speaking another language to me . Are my replies appearing on the computer screen to you? You gave the definition of pride, I was only asking from whom do you perceive to accept admiration which is an intrinsic part of the definition of pride. You cannot be proud of something that has no outstanding features over others. It is like being proud of being number 26, it has no meaning unless you perceive in some way it is something special and you believe that specialness is perceived by others in some way. here we go again.... I have a feeling of deep pleasure in Scotlands achievements , and the achievements of the Scottish people . You ignore what im saying continually , and then scratch around In the dirt cherry picking one single part of the many definitions of the word pride to suit your puerile argument. repeat after me sandy. Thomas doesn't care who does or doesnt admire scotland. Keep saying it till it sinks in .. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 27, 2024 13:37:37 GMT
Well England was a Norman/Angevin colony after all England was invaded and colonised by Normans who took control of the Crown and the aristocracy. So it was a Norman colony that invaded Ireland and it was Norman/Angevin/Welsh settlers that moved beyond the Pale. As the colonised then the Anglo-Saxons have little or no culpability for the actions of a usurper crown. It matters little the legitimacy of any claim as it was an Irishman that asked for assistance from the Norman Crown against those with whom he was in dispute and this general action was supported by the Papacy and the Catholic Church was a very strong arbiter of what what was 'legitimate'. History is full of such actions. We know all that sandy. The English king was an anglo Norman , just as the present English king is a saxe Coburg gotta , a German by family descent. The English crown hasn't had an English family in charge since that wee guy who got his eye taken out at Hastings. What matters is the family name , and bloodline , not where you are born. Whats you excuse for ireland being an English colony under Henry 8ths Tudor re invasions , or Mary tudors plantations of English colonists ? Dermott mcmurrough was king of Leinster , not ireland. He was deposed under Irish law , had no legitimate claim over Leinster , let alone ireland , and is merely a puerile and poorly made excuse for legitimising English and anglo Norman invasions of the island of ireland. its guff , which Irish weans could pick apart. I have no excuse I was merely observing that Ireland was not necessarily England's first colony and the history is much more complicated. Just as I accept the fact that the Scottish Crown expanded the plantation of Ireland and placed many Scottish colonists into what were Irish lands in Ulster making it effectively a Scottish colony. Well some Irish sites seem to differ with your take as he was referred to as King of Leinster and wanted to take back his kingdom after being deposed. The Papacy were all for it and they were a powerful force. |
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