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Post by thomas on Jan 23, 2024 12:26:58 GMT
Gibraltar , which isn't part of Britain , also voted I the referendum , and Northern Ireland which is part of the uk , but not part of Britain voted , and got to remain. So the idea this was a UK democratic referendum , and Scotland just had to shut up and do what it's told is fucking laughable. Especially when two British prime ministers agreed one part of the uk , could remain , but the part that voted highest remain Scotland couldnt. Your argument is so out of date , considering the events in northern ireland , it's full of more holes than a teabag. The uk did not leave , only the British island part fully left. One part got to remain de facto , so so should Scotland. Gibraltar is also still effectively in the EU. In fact, it is classed as part of Schengen. If you are sailing in the Med' time spent in Gib' doesn't count against your 90 days in a 180 that you are allowed in the EU. I haven't checked up on events regarding Brexit in Gibraltar monte recently , so thanks for that. Another inconvenient truth sandy pine like to ignore , when telling us how Britain aka the uk and regions that took part in 2016 , had a democratic vote , so we have to democratically all leave together . So two areas now have a different relationship to the EU than the rest you say? Seems exceptions can be made when it suits. Thanks for your post . |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 23, 2024 12:45:51 GMT
Interest always lies in the subjective eye. You expressed pride, that expression interested me as to why one should have pride in a nation/country, it is still not clear why that pride exists and if you forgive me you have danced around the houses to avoid saying exactly why that pride exists. I have clearly stated why I have pride in Britain and being British but for some reason you dodge the clear thought that you have pride in something because you believe it is in some way something to be proud of, what is that some way? With all due respect calling my questions gibberish is really not becoming. Its as if im posting words , but you aren't either really understanding them , or ignoring what im saying and then continue to ask the same question over and over again and again. You the tried to turn our exchange into some my pride is better than yours childish debate. Im still not sure what you are asking , or what you dont understand , what you want me to say , or what point you are trying to make , so lets start again. Im proud of Scotland native language. You British have no language , so how can you be proud of that? im proud of Scotland iconic emblems of culture.......whiskey , tartan , haggis , bagpipes. You British have no iconic emblems of culture , because there is no British culture. nothing. Im proud of Scotlands long and glorious history. One of the oldest nations in the world , and our people have been mentioned as far back as scholastic research can penetrate into the roman era. You British at best have a tiny history stretching back to 1707 , a mere footnote in history. so many things , that can be hard to pin down and define , because being Scottish and taking pride in your country and people isn't something you need to think about , it comes naturally without any effort. A mindset , that's installed from birth , family and the environment you grow up in . now you might yet again reject that , but that's your problem not mine. Ive repeatedly tried to put into words my thoughts and feelings. I can write it for you , but I can't understand it for you. to turn things around , what exactly is it you British are proud of? There is no British nation , merely an island with the geographical name. the very basic things countries take for granted , birth certificates , football teams , general culture and language you lack. As far as I can see sandy , you are proud there was once long ago a British empire , but it's now long gone. In every aspect I can think of you are in massive decline. Indeed , every day , the British are on these forums complaining about that decline. I dont see pride .Only defeatism and anger , resentment and navel gazing about a world long gone. militarily , economically , in every aspect I can think of you are receding and declining. so what is it you are actually proud about? To go back to the long gone empire , I fully agree what the English historian Frank Ridley famously said. There is no such thing as a British empire. What existed was an English empire , of which Ireland , Wales , then Scotland , were the first colonies , in that order. With all due respect you are posting lots of words that do not explain why? What have you got to be proud about as regards Scotland? We seem to be verging on answer when you refer to the British who have no history so in that respect you think Scotland is superior to Britain and therefore your pride is well founded whereas mine is at best spurious with a lesser and murkier history. I suppose that is progress. We have been down the 'English' empire bit before. The Empire was expanded largely by Scots and Irish and in many respects run and policed by Scots and Irish. Ireland was not a colony of England, it was a Norman/Angevin/Welsh colony that did not extend very far from Dublin. Wales was conquered by England, no doubt about that but Scotland formed a Union with England the reasons why are at best contentious and very much depend on one's current viewpoint. There is little doubt that the economic and political situation in Scotland was in some turmoil in the early 19th century and Thomas Green was just an unfortunate pawn in the bitter game being played out. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 23, 2024 12:56:20 GMT
Gibraltar is also still effectively in the EU. In fact, it is classed as part of Schengen. If you are sailing in the Med' time spent in Gib' doesn't count against your 90 days in a 180 that you are allowed in the EU. I haven't checked up on events regarding Brexit in Gibraltar monte recently , so thanks for that. Another inconvenient truth sandy pine like to ignore , when telling us how Britain aka the uk and regions that took part in 2016 , had a democratic vote , so we have to democratically all leave together . So two areas now have a different relationship to the EU than the rest you say? Seems exceptions can be made when it suits. Thanks for your post . It may of course be true but the upshot of Brexit is in the hands of politicians who play out the game dependent on the relationship of any part of the UK. I believe NI should be as per the UK and if that means the EU have to erect border controls then that is an EU problem, why the UK has taken it on board seems at best ludicrous. Gibraltar is an Overseas territory, Scotland is not. The EU membership has created all sorts of problems but then that is the nature of the beast as it slowly binds and squeezes until all individuality is gone. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 23, 2024 13:01:56 GMT
Interest always lies in the subjective eye. You expressed pride, that expression interested me as to why one should have pride in a nation/country, it is still not clear why that pride exists and if you forgive me you have danced around the houses to avoid saying exactly why that pride exists. I have clearly stated why I have pride in Britain and being British but for some reason you dodge the clear thought that you have pride in something because you believe it is in some way something to be proud of, what is that some way? With all due respect calling my questions gibberish is really not becoming. you do have a tendency to make long winded posts without any significant point. There are many reason many different people support Scottish nationalism. Being proud of your country , and who you are is merely a small part of that . There are things im not proud of , and if no pride existed , I would still support Scotland being an independent country as it the natural order of nations , and a complete no brainer. As I supported the UK being an independent country. Scotland being independent I may have a certain sympathy with but for the life of me I cannot see why gaining independence from the UK is immediately replaced by joining a Union with the EU. I can only put it down to a generally hatred/dislike of the English which seems one of the base reasons for some seeking independence. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 23, 2024 16:11:11 GMT
Its as if im posting words , but you aren't either really understanding them , or ignoring what im saying and then continue to ask the same question over and over again and again. You the tried to turn our exchange into some my pride is better than yours childish debate. Im still not sure what you are asking , or what you dont understand , what you want me to say , or what point you are trying to make , so lets start again. Im proud of Scotland native language. You British have no language , so how can you be proud of that? im proud of Scotland iconic emblems of culture.......whiskey , tartan , haggis , bagpipes. You British have no iconic emblems of culture , because there is no British culture. nothing. Im proud of Scotlands long and glorious history. One of the oldest nations in the world , and our people have been mentioned as far back as scholastic research can penetrate into the roman era. You British at best have a tiny history stretching back to 1707 , a mere footnote in history. so many things , that can be hard to pin down and define , because being Scottish and taking pride in your country and people isn't something you need to think about , it comes naturally without any effort. A mindset , that's installed from birth , family and the environment you grow up in . now you might yet again reject that , but that's your problem not mine. Ive repeatedly tried to put into words my thoughts and feelings. I can write it for you , but I can't understand it for you. to turn things around , what exactly is it you British are proud of? There is no British nation , merely an island with the geographical name. the very basic things countries take for granted , birth certificates , football teams , general culture and language you lack. As far as I can see sandy , you are proud there was once long ago a British empire , but it's now long gone. In every aspect I can think of you are in massive decline. Indeed , every day , the British are on these forums complaining about that decline. I dont see pride .Only defeatism and anger , resentment and navel gazing about a world long gone. militarily , economically , in every aspect I can think of you are receding and declining. so what is it you are actually proud about? To go back to the long gone empire , I fully agree what the English historian Frank Ridley famously said. There is no such thing as a British empire. What existed was an English empire , of which Ireland , Wales , then Scotland , were the first colonies , in that order. With all due respect you are posting lots of words that do not explain why? What have you got to be proud about as regards Scotland? We seem to be verging on answer when you refer to the British who have no history so in that respect you think Scotland is superior to Britain and therefore your pride is well founded whereas mine is at best spurious with a lesser and murkier history. I suppose that is progress. We have been down the 'English' empire bit before. The Empire was expanded largely by Scots and Irish and in many respects run and policed by Scots and Irish. Ireland was not a colony of England, it was a Norman/Angevin/Welsh colony that did not extend very far from Dublin. Wales was conquered by England, no doubt about that but Scotland formed a Union with England the reasons why are at best contentious and very much depend on one's current viewpoint. There is little doubt that the economic and political situation in Scotland was in some turmoil in the early 19th century and Thomas Green was just an unfortunate pawn in the bitter game being played out. ive explained why now numerous times. you then ignore the explanation , and keep asking me why over and over again. If you dont understand , nor can you compute the answer in the English language , then how can I possibly do any more than ive done? lets go back to the definition of the word pride. I wrote a list of things above on a number of posts , which you ignored , and continue to ask why ? I take a deep satisfaction of the achievements of the Scottish nation past and present , our history language culture . That is the answer. eh? I pointed out Scotland has a history as a nation going back over a thousand years , with references to the Scottish people as early as the roman era , and I also pointed out the modern British history is barely three hundred years old. It's not about who is better , im pointing out Scotland has a far longer history culture language and tradition than Britain . many servants served the imperial interests of many empires , but the centre , the dynamic , language and culture of the `British ` empire was English . I agree with the historian Ridley. rubbish. the king of England , who happened to be a frenchman called Henry 2 , also an angevin , with other lands and titles , made the Irish high king Ruadri swear fealty to him in 1175 in the treaty of Windsor , and the Irish nobility. They swore to be the liegemen of the English crown , and they would hold their titles under the feudal system , in service to Englands crown. This was the basis of English rule and claims to rule over ireland , which extends to this day with Charles Windsor as king of Northern Ireland. That the Irish fought back over the centuries, till all that remained was the Dublin pale is neither here nor there , the fact was the original conquest , loss of land , and subsequent Tudor and cromwellian conquests were all done on the name of England , and Ireland was regarded as a colony of England . so what are you talking about? so is this a tacit agreement Wales is a colony? we know all this. People like professor alf Baird and many others today argue Scotland is a colony , and have put forth their reason why. Perhaps you need to look up the word colony , when you look up the definition of the word pride , and read what the definition says , not what you would like it to say. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 23, 2024 16:14:51 GMT
I haven't checked up on events regarding Brexit in Gibraltar monte recently , so thanks for that. Another inconvenient truth sandy pine like to ignore , when telling us how Britain aka the uk and regions that took part in 2016 , had a democratic vote , so we have to democratically all leave together . So two areas now have a different relationship to the EU than the rest you say? Seems exceptions can be made when it suits. Thanks for your post . It may of course be true but the upshot of Brexit is in the hands of politicians who play out the game dependent on the relationship of any part of the UK. I believe NI should be as per the UK and if that means the EU have to erect border controls then that is an EU problem, why the UK has taken it on board seems at best ludicrous. Gibraltar is an Overseas territory, Scotland is not. The EU membership has created all sorts of problems but then that is the nature of the beast as it slowly binds and squeezes until all individuality is gone. another diversionary waffle. Sorry but it is. The point is your claim Brexit was a British referendum , so Britain had to leave. of the five nations and regions who voted , two de facto remained , and three left. Showing the absurdity of your implication. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 23, 2024 16:19:52 GMT
you do have a tendency to make long winded posts without any significant point. There are many reason many different people support Scottish nationalism. Being proud of your country , and who you are is merely a small part of that . There are things im not proud of , and if no pride existed , I would still support Scotland being an independent country as it the natural order of nations , and a complete no brainer. As I supported the UK being an independent country. Scotland being independent I may have a certain sympathy with but for the life of me I cannot see why gaining independence from the UK is immediately replaced by joining a Union with the EU. I can only put it down to a generally hatred/dislike of the English which seems one of the base reasons for some seeking independence. The uk isn't a country .It clearly is a multi national state. wether you see the validity of rejoining the EU or not is not my concern. In Scotland you are in a tiny minority , and as part of the uk , it looks like Brexit as it stands is about to come to an end. Either way , you are doomed politically speaking as a eurosceptic as things stand. I can only put you unwillingness to rejoin the EU as simple hatred for europeans . Im a European , and I will never stop being a European , and Scotland is a European nation . One way or the other , you are going back in either as part of the uk or an indy Scotland. Then hopefully you can come to terms with your irrational hatred of our fellow European people . |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 23, 2024 18:04:10 GMT
you do have a tendency to make long winded posts without any significant point. There are many reason many different people support Scottish nationalism. Being proud of your country , and who you are is merely a small part of that . There are things im not proud of , and if no pride existed , I would still support Scotland being an independent country as it the natural order of nations , and a complete no brainer. As I supported the UK being an independent country. Scotland being independent I may have a certain sympathy with but for the life of me I cannot see why gaining independence from the UK is immediately replaced by joining a Union with the EU. I can only put it down to a generally hatred/dislike of the English which seems one of the base reasons for some seeking independence.It is the only plausible explanation. They're even trying to spread that hate into Wales. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 23, 2024 20:06:55 GMT
With all due respect you are posting lots of words that do not explain why? What have you got to be proud about as regards Scotland? We seem to be verging on answer when you refer to the British who have no history so in that respect you think Scotland is superior to Britain and therefore your pride is well founded whereas mine is at best spurious with a lesser and murkier history. I suppose that is progress. We have been down the 'English' empire bit before. The Empire was expanded largely by Scots and Irish and in many respects run and policed by Scots and Irish. Ireland was not a colony of England, it was a Norman/Angevin/Welsh colony that did not extend very far from Dublin. Wales was conquered by England, no doubt about that but Scotland formed a Union with England the reasons why are at best contentious and very much depend on one's current viewpoint. There is little doubt that the economic and political situation in Scotland was in some turmoil in the early 19th century and Thomas Green was just an unfortunate pawn in the bitter game being played out. ive explained why now numerous times. you then ignore the explanation , and keep asking me why over and over again. If you dont understand , nor can you compute the answer in the English language , then how can I possibly do any more than ive done? lets go back to the definition of the word pride. I wrote a list of things above on a number of posts , which you ignored , and continue to ask why ? I take a deep satisfaction of the achievements of the Scottish nation past and present , our history language culture . That is the answer. eh? I pointed out Scotland has a history as a nation going back over a thousand years , with references to the Scottish people as early as the roman era , and I also pointed out the modern British history is barely three hundred years old. It's not about who is better , im pointing out Scotland has a far longer history culture language and tradition than Britain . many servants served the imperial interests of many empires , but the centre , the dynamic , language and culture of the `British ` empire was English . I agree with the historian Ridley. rubbish. the king of England , who happened to be a frenchman called Henry 2 , also an angevin , with other lands and titles , made the Irish high king Ruadri swear fealty to him in 1175 in the treaty of Windsor , and the Irish nobility. They swore to be the liegemen of the English crown , and they would hold their titles under the feudal system , in service to Englands crown. This was the basis of English rule and claims to rule over ireland , which extends to this day with Charles Windsor as king of Northern Ireland. That the Irish fought back over the centuries, till all that remained was the Dublin pale is neither here nor there , the fact was the original conquest , loss of land , and subsequent Tudor and cromwellian conquests were all done on the name of England , and Ireland was regarded as a colony of England . so what are you talking about? so is this a tacit agreement Wales is a colony? we know all this. People like professor alf Baird and many others today argue Scotland is a colony , and have put forth their reason why. Perhaps you need to look up the word colony , when you look up the definition of the word pride , and read what the definition says , not what you would like it to say. I keep asking why you have pride in the achievements are they something special and better than others it is a fairly simple question that you have used lots of words but not addressed. Are Scottish achievments greater, is Scotland more beautiful, is the culture a better culture? You gave the definition above again which said "a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired." Where are Scottish achievements and qualities and possessions widely admired so that you can have pride in the admiration of others. The crown was an Angevin ruler in England, the Crown is not the people and the people are not the crown until we arrive at parliament post civil war. After all the English are the Anglo-Saxons and at the time the courts and the rule was Norman/Angevin, or French if you like. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 23, 2024 21:10:08 GMT
It may of course be true but the upshot of Brexit is in the hands of politicians who play out the game dependent on the relationship of any part of the UK. I believe NI should be as per the UK and if that means the EU have to erect border controls then that is an EU problem, why the UK has taken it on board seems at best ludicrous. Gibraltar is an Overseas territory, Scotland is not. The EU membership has created all sorts of problems but then that is the nature of the beast as it slowly binds and squeezes until all individuality is gone. another diversionary waffle. Sorry but it is. The point is your claim Brexit was a British referendum , so Britain had to leave. of the five nations and regions who voted , two de facto remained , and three left. Showing the absurdity of your implication. I said membership of the EU was not a devolved issue so any decision was a Union decision. I do not specifically like the direction that Brexit has gone but that is because it was Remainers trying to organise Brexit and trying to dilute it to the point of only the essence was left. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 24, 2024 8:05:01 GMT
ive explained why now numerous times. you then ignore the explanation , and keep asking me why over and over again. If you dont understand , nor can you compute the answer in the English language , then how can I possibly do any more than ive done? lets go back to the definition of the word pride. I keep asking why you have pride in the achievements are they something special and better than others it is a fairly simple question that you have used lots of words but not addressed. Are Scottish achievments greater, is Scotland more beautiful, is the culture a better culture? You gave the definition above again which said "a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired." Where are Scottish achievements and qualities and possessions widely admired so that you can have pride in the admiration of others. The crown was an Angevin ruler in England, the Crown is not the people and the people are not the crown until we arrive at parliament post civil war. After all the English are the Anglo-Saxons and at the time the courts and the rule was Norman/Angevin, or French if you like. plese see my above posts where these points have been addressed. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 24, 2024 8:08:07 GMT
another diversionary waffle. Sorry but it is. The point is your claim Brexit was a British referendum , so Britain had to leave. of the five nations and regions who voted , two de facto remained , and three left. Showing the absurdity of your implication. I said membership of the EU was not a devolved issue so any decision was a Union decision. I do not specifically like the direction that Brexit has gone but that is because it was Remainers trying to organise Brexit and trying to dilute it to the point of only the essence was left. I know what you said.I didnt say Brexit was a devolved issue. Your implication was one entity , one vote. majority decision , we all have to like it or lump it. .....and its been pointed out time and gain , by three different forum members including myself ,your own Westminster government didnt agree with you and let Gibraltar and Northern Ireland de facto remain contrary to your one entity one vote rule. So clearly it wasn't a single union decision as you put it. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 24, 2024 8:12:23 GMT
ive explained why now numerous times. you then ignore the explanation , and keep asking me why over and over again. If you dont understand , nor can you compute the answer in the English language , then how can I possibly do any more than ive done? . The crown was an Angevin ruler in England, the Crown is not the people and the people are not the crown until we arrive at parliament post civil war. After all the English are the Anglo-Saxons and at the time the courts and the rule was Norman/Angevin, or French if you like. Ireland is widely regarded , by the Irish , non Irish and most historians as Englands first colony.
First colony
Ireland was, after all, England’s first colony.
For more than 700 years, the Irish lived under and alongside the English, and later British, Empire.
Being the first colony, Ireland was where the British imperial project and its racist policies were formulated and then exported to other parts of the accumulating empire – Canada, India, Ceylon, for example.Words such as “ethnic cleansing”, “racially inferior”, and “segregation” pepper texts on the British conquest of Ireland at the behest of royalty.
www.aljazeera.com/features/2022/9/14/viewing-king-charles-from-british-empires-first-colony-ireland#:~:text=England%27s%20first%20colony.-,For%20more%20than%20700%20years%2C%20the%20Irish%20lived%20under%20and,India%2C%20Ceylon%2C%20for%20example.
colony
a country or area under the full or partial political control of another country and occupied by settlers from that country. |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 24, 2024 13:22:49 GMT
I keep asking why you have pride in the achievements are they something special and better than others it is a fairly simple question that you have used lots of words but not addressed. Are Scottish achievments greater, is Scotland more beautiful, is the culture a better culture? You gave the definition above again which said "a feeling of deep pleasure or satisfaction derived from one's own achievements, the achievements of those with whom one is closely associated, or from qualities or possessions that are widely admired." Where are Scottish achievements and qualities and possessions widely admired so that you can have pride in the admiration of others. The crown was an Angevin ruler in England, the Crown is not the people and the people are not the crown until we arrive at parliament post civil war. After all the English are the Anglo-Saxons and at the time the courts and the rule was Norman/Angevin, or French if you like. plese see my above posts where these points have been addressed. Well they really have not. I will try it a different way. What is it about Scotland, the Scottish and their achievements you expect others to admire? |
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Post by sandypine on Jan 24, 2024 13:27:56 GMT
I said membership of the EU was not a devolved issue so any decision was a Union decision. I do not specifically like the direction that Brexit has gone but that is because it was Remainers trying to organise Brexit and trying to dilute it to the point of only the essence was left. I know what you said.I didnt say Brexit was a devolved issue. Your implication was one entity , one vote. majority decision , we all have to like it or lump it. .....and its been pointed out time and gain , by three different forum members including myself ,your own Westminster government didnt agree with you and let Gibraltar and Northern Ireland de facto remain contrary to your one entity one vote rule. So clearly it wasn't a single union decision as you put it. And I have said that is wrong, certainly for NI. Gibraltar is an overseas territory so I am not clear on that however it should have left in total as well. I am not responsible for the half hearted application of Brexit by those who would have preferred to have stayed in. In 1975 Shetland and the Western Isles voted No, should they have been allowed to go their own way or were they part of the Union? |
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