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Post by thomas on Feb 4, 2024 9:24:48 GMT
The default position of hating the English is central to their campaign. Take that away and what's left? Still waiting. He has nothing to say moray , except whine about how everyone hates him. The very definition of a troll , who pollutes threads throughout this forum making direct and indirect attacks on people or parties without addressing in any way shape or form the subject at hand. |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 4, 2024 11:01:16 GMT
Yes I am. I said it was not an English colony, it was a Norman colony. What is difficult to understand about that? The fact that assimilation, and it is arguable to what degree, occurred and it came under what we all would agree was English rule is a moot point. One could argue the civil war was the turning point as by and large the Norman ascendancy were Royalists and the Yeoman and base workers were the Roundheads. Religion and ethnicity played no small part although it was by then mixed up with class. For some reason Ireland being ruled by foreigners for hundreds of years makes it a colony, England being ruled by foreigners and colonised for just over a hundred years makes it a colonial empire builder. The Empire was Norman/Angevin and England was a colony by your definition. The Irish fought those rulers, the English allowed a degree of assimilation and now pay the historic price by being blamed for it all from day 1. can you explain to me clearly which period you now agree ireland was an English colony ,and which period you dont .? Perhaps if you take time to actually read what I said and try and understand. From the top. The invasion of Ireland in the late 12th century was an undertaking by forces of the Angevin Empire which for ease from Wiki is "the possessions held by the House of Plantagenet during the 12th and 13th centuries, when they ruled over an area covering roughly all of present-day England, half of France, and parts of Ireland and Wales, and had further influence over much of the remaining". So until that time England was part of said Empire and colonised by said Empire certainly as regards the propertied classes. So Ireland, at this time, was not a colony of England it was a colony of the Angevin Empire. As time progressed to the Tudors that Empire was gradually assimilated by and also assimilated into what we would now describe as the country of England and that country inherited the colony of Ireland along with other possessions and also expanded its possessions into France. So the end of the wars of the roses probably marks England coming of age. At this time, although moot, is largely recognised as the existence of an Independent England although the aristocracy were still largely of Norman heritage. There is little doubt Henry VIII was expansionist but those are other tales. This partly why I asked you what a country was in the context of your claim that Ireland was a colony of England and gave a definition of a colony. As ever the point I am making is that history is by no means a cut and dried affair with easy heroes and villains it is a complex maze of events and interactions with many personal rivalries and eternal feuds. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 4, 2024 11:22:32 GMT
can you explain to me clearly which period you now agree ireland was an English colony ,and which period you dont .? Perhaps if you take time to actually read what I said and try and understand. ive read and re read your posts time and again , and the problem is your position changes with the wind as we have highlighted through the thread which is why im now demanding clarity on your current position. irrelevant to my point. the 1175 treaty of Windsor , which mentions the English crown and the English 12 times , makes explicitly clear ireland is being annexed to the English crown , not Anjou , normandy or elsewhere. a load of pure utter waffle. Can I ask you once again , are you clarifying that you agree with me from the Tudor period onwards, ireland was a colony of England ? yes or no? Irrelevant to my point. I maintain ireland was an English colony in part or full , from 1175 , to this present day. You said you disagreed with that fact , and now are so dishonest you won't even stand under your flag and tell me which period you agree with me , and which period you dont. back to you. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 4, 2024 11:52:01 GMT
can you explain to me clearly which period you now agree ireland was an English colony ,and which period you dont .? As ever the point I am making is that history is by no means a cut and dried affair with easy heroes and villains it is a complex maze of events and interactions with many personal rivalries and eternal feuds. an example of your sheer dishonesty on this thread. page 4... I wrote.... page 5 you replied... page 7 we get your first back track ... on page 12 , you emphasise your backtrack regarding ireland being an English colony from the Tudor period onwards.. page 13 you say...  So my contention is ireland was a colony of England from 1175 onwards. You originally said it wasn't , then backtracked throughout the thread , mealy mouthed , implying you agreed with me from the Tudor period onwards , but dont from say 1175 to 1450 . When I asked you to clarify , you reply with this load of utter waffle , mere word salad , designed to save face from your earlier climbdowns that ireland wasn't an English colony . So can we be clear , your current position is that ireland wasn't an English colony from 1175 to around the Tudor period , say starting from 1485 ? |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 4, 2024 16:31:56 GMT
As ever the point I am making is that history is by no means a cut and dried affair with easy heroes and villains it is a complex maze of events and interactions with many personal rivalries and eternal feuds. an example of your sheer dishonesty on this thread. page 4... I wrote.... page 5 you replied... page 7 we get your first back track ... on page 12 , you emphasise your backtrack regarding ireland being an English colony from the Tudor period onwards.. page 13 you say... So my contention is ireland was a colony of England from 1175 onwards. You originally said it wasn't , then backtracked throughout the thread , mealy mouthed , implying you agreed with me from the Tudor period onwards , but dont from say 1175 to 1450 . When I asked you to clarify , you reply with this load of utter waffle , mere word salad , designed to save face from your earlier climbdowns that ireland wasn't an English colony . So can we be clear , your current position is that ireland wasn't an English colony from 1175 to around the Tudor period , say starting from 1485 ? Do we have to go through this inane trip through semantics and you said and I said. I said Ireland was not a colony of England because it was invaded by those who were colonising England. Why that would be irrelevant I know not. What is so difficult to understand? I accept that post Tudor times one could say it was an English colony as the England that then existed inherited Ireland but Ireland had been colonised before that period by the Angevin Empire. Henry VIII proclaimed himself King of Ireland so that could complicate the whole issue. You have so far declined to define a 'country' that was part of your supposed definition of a 'colony'. I have no 'current' position I have a position I have stated from day one that Ireland was part of the Angevin Empire and invaded by that Empire and colonised by that Empire. Tudor times and the gradual break up of that Empire meant the King of England had province over Ireland as an inheritance. One could argue the semantics around that but I am not going to. I repeat the calling of Ireland an 'English' Colony was factually wrong certainly until Tudor times and is a calumny against the English who were also colonised at this time by the same colonial power. The Crown of Britain is a shifting complicated thing and frequently opposed by many and varied groups. Opposition does not negate what happened it just complicates it. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 4, 2024 16:52:12 GMT
an example of your sheer dishonesty on this thread. page 4... I wrote.... page 5 you replied... page 7 we get your first back track ... on page 12 , you emphasise your backtrack regarding ireland being an English colony from the Tudor period onwards.. page 13 you say... So my contention is ireland was a colony of England from 1175 onwards. You originally said it wasn't , then backtracked throughout the thread , mealy mouthed , implying you agreed with me from the Tudor period onwards , but dont from say 1175 to 1450 . When I asked you to clarify , you reply with this load of utter waffle , mere word salad , designed to save face from your earlier climbdowns that ireland wasn't an English colony . So can we be clear , your current position is that ireland wasn't an English colony from 1175 to around the Tudor period , say starting from 1485 ? Do we have to go through this inane trip through semantics and you said and I said. I said Ireland was not a colony of England because it was invaded by those who were colonising England. you didnt. You added these caveats at a later stage where you climbed down from your earlier position. Ive highlighted your duplicity numerous times. your argument is now you accept ireland was a colony of England , post Tudor , in agreement with my earlier contention. You disagree with the Norman period. Ive posted numerous times now , the normans annexed ireland to the English crown in 1175. |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 4, 2024 17:51:53 GMT
Do we have to go through this inane trip through semantics and you said and I said. I said Ireland was not a colony of England because it was invaded by those who were colonising England. you didnt. You added these caveats at a later stage where you climbed down from your earlier position. Ive highlighted your duplicity numerous times. your argument is now you accept ireland was a colony of England , post Tudor , in agreement with my earlier contention. You disagree with the Norman period. Ive posted numerous times now , the normans annexed ireland to the English crown in 1175. I added those 'caveats' to help your understanding of what I said and what I meant, so it seems inane semantics is the name of the game and clarification is called a climbdown. So be it. I repeat Ireland was not a colony of England ( there I have said it again) because Ireland was a colony of the Angevin Empire, it was ruled by and settled by colonists of that Empire and the vast majority of these were not English and if they were they were pressed men many through colonial power. I concede, and I have always conceded that once England had through assimilation become a separate entity by Tudor times then one could argue that at that point Ireland was an inherited colony although by that time the colonials were a mix of Irish, English, Norman, Welsh, Scandinavian and Scots. Infighting between and within these groups was all part of the complicated mosaic in these turbulent times. Laying the misery at England's door through calling Ireland an English colony is not only factually incorrect but designed to form an historical narrative of blame. EDIT I see you keep dodging the 'country' question. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2024 18:27:41 GMT
I don't think they can admit to the truth, Sandypine. If they did their entire campaign or even lives would be exposed as a lie. Basically, it's a belief system and not a rational position. This is why anything less than spreading hate, bile and lies about us is unacceptable.
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Post by thomas on Feb 4, 2024 20:57:25 GMT
you didnt. You added these caveats at a later stage where you climbed down from your earlier position. Ive highlighted your duplicity numerous times. your argument is now you accept ireland was a colony of England , post Tudor , in agreement with my earlier contention. You disagree with the Norman period. Ive posted numerous times now , the normans annexed ireland to the English crown in 1175. I added those 'caveats' to help your understanding of what I said and what I meant, so it seems inane semantics is the name of the game and clarification is called a climbdown. I posted your original post to see . You claimed ireland was not an English colony , then subsequently added caveats in later posts. Ive accepted your climbdown , now because you can't bare to lose face , you still waffle on trying to cover your tracks by throwing more guff to muddy the waters. So lets once again confirm your `current stance` in relation to my own. I maintain ireland (in part or full) over 849 years to this current day , is a colony of England. You (subsequently) now maintain ireland is a colony of England for only 549 years of that to this present day correct? So you are arguing with me about the first roughly 3 centuries are we not? Once we clarify your climbdown , we can concentrate on the Norman period. the above reference makes quite clear all that I have been saying. Ireland was an English colony , claimed by the English crown , from 1175 onwards. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 4, 2024 20:59:34 GMT
I don't think they can admit to the truth, Sandypine. If they did their entire campaign or even lives would be exposed as a lie. Basically, it's a belief system and not a rational position. This is why anything less than spreading hate, bile and lies about us is unacceptable. you are trolling the thread yet agin , looking for a reaction so you can run to the mods to scream about me. You have absolutely nothing whatsoever to offer this forum except trolling nonsense . |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 4, 2024 21:14:31 GMT
I am permitted to share my views on why they depend on anglophobia. If the forum is truely anglophobic and fascist then report me.
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Post by morayloon on Feb 5, 2024 1:48:54 GMT
I am permitted to share my views on why they depend on anglophobia. If the forum is truely anglophobic and fascist then report me. The idea is that you back up those views with some hard evidence. You have singularly failed to do that. Why is that? Can't you find ANY evidence? I don't think the mods need to be told: they can read, and they can see that your poisonous comments are not being supported. You've only yourself to blame if the mods grow a pair and do something about your trolling activity! |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 5, 2024 9:47:14 GMT
I added those 'caveats' to help your understanding of what I said and what I meant, so it seems inane semantics is the name of the game and clarification is called a climbdown. I posted your original post to see . You claimed ireland was not an English colony , then subsequently added caveats in later posts. Ive accepted your climbdown , now because you can't bare to lose face , you still waffle on trying to cover your tracks by throwing more guff to muddy the waters. So lets once again confirm your `current stance` in relation to my own. I maintain ireland (in part or full) over 849 years to this current day , is a colony of England. You (subsequently) now maintain ireland is a colony of England for only 549 years of that to this present day correct? So you are arguing with me about the first roughly 3 centuries are we not? Once we clarify your climbdown , we can concentrate on the Norman period. the above reference makes quite clear all that I have been saying. Ireland was an English colony , claimed by the English crown , from 1175 onwards. Once you start quoting me fully then we can proceed. "Ireland was not a colony of England, it was a Norman/Angevin/Welsh colony that did not extend very far from Dublin." That is a precise and factual description of what Ireland was. Please note I did not say was never, I said was not. You are back to more than 700 years of English involvement yet 'the English' were largely absent and not in control of the events for which you are clearly blaming them. It is a strange world where a people are conquered by a foreign power and have a king imposed upon them and then get the blame for what he and his issue did next with the colonists he placed over them. It is like saying native Americans are now largely assimilated into the USA and they were the colonialists of the Philippines, it is an obvious nonsense. But then political narrative is always dependant on what the agenda is. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 6, 2024 8:10:27 GMT
I posted your original post to see . You claimed ireland was not an English colony , then subsequently added caveats in later posts. Ive accepted your climbdown , now because you can't bare to lose face , you still waffle on trying to cover your tracks by throwing more guff to muddy the waters. So lets once again confirm your `current stance` in relation to my own. I maintain ireland (in part or full) over 849 years to this current day , is a colony of England. You (subsequently) now maintain ireland is a colony of England for only 549 years of that to this present day correct? So you are arguing with me about the first roughly 3 centuries are we not? Once we clarify your climbdown , we can concentrate on the Norman period. the above reference makes quite clear all that I have been saying. Ireland was an English colony , claimed by the English crown , from 1175 onwards. Once you start quoting me fully then we can proceed. "Ireland was not a colony of England, it was a Norman/Angevin/Welsh colony that did not extend very far from Dublin." That is a precise and factual description of what Ireland was. Please note I did not say was never, I said was not. This is false. I said ireland was the first colony of england in my original post on page 4. You replied on page 5 , it was not a colony of England . You disingenuously ignored the vast majority of history of the last 849 years to this day in your original post , and started waffling about the normans. I accept your surrender on this point , and you agree now with my original contention that ireland was an English colony for the majority of the last 8 centuries of history. you are back arguing semantics as normal , trying to retreat and cover your tracks in the process. `was not ` has a ring of finality to it. as well as being dishonest , you dont appear to be able to count either. 849 years to this day. you keep waffling and refusing to accept the evidence of your eyes , while offering nothing in return except `sandy says`. I pointed out the original treaty of Windsor mentions the king of England and the English 12 times in 1175 . We have the letter to pope John 22nd , in the year 1317 from domhnall o Neil in the harle manuscript in the British museum talking about English claims over ireland , (not Norman) and English colonists living in ireland. O Neil is very specific. can ignore the evidence all you like , as you ignored the last link in my previous post , and carry on screaming its not the English all day long , but it doesn't make you right. |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 6, 2024 10:02:31 GMT
Once you start quoting me fully then we can proceed. "Ireland was not a colony of England, it was a Norman/Angevin/Welsh colony that did not extend very far from Dublin." That is a precise and factual description of what Ireland was. Please note I did not say was never, I said was not. This is false. I said ireland was the first colony of england in my original post on page 4. You replied on page 5 , it was not a colony of England . You disingenuously ignored the vast majority of history of the last 849 years to this day in your original post , and started waffling about the normans. I accept your surrender on this point , and you agree now with my original contention that ireland was an English colony for the majority of the last 8 centuries of history. you are back arguing semantics as normal , trying to retreat and cover your tracks in the process. `was not ` has a ring of finality to it. as well as being dishonest , you dont appear to be able to count either. 849 years to this day. you keep waffling and refusing to accept the evidence of your eyes , while offering nothing in return except `sandy says`. I pointed out the original treaty of Windsor mentions the king of England and the English 12 times in 1175 . We have the letter to pope John 22nd , in the year 1317 from domhnall o Neil in the harle manuscript in the British museum talking about English claims over ireland , (not Norman) and English colonists living in ireland. O Neil is very specific. can ignore the evidence all you like , as you ignored the last link in my previous post , and carry on screaming its not the English all day long , but it doesn't make you right. I see there is determination to blame the English at all costs, you misquoted me again by omitting my qualifying clause as to why I said Ireland was not a colony of England it was a Norman/Angevin/Welsh colony. I am unclear how many times I have to say this, you may not accept it and resort to agenda histories and call the English Crown the English when it is part of a foreign based empire. We have Henry VIII declared King of Ireland and holding the Crown of Ireland but in that respect you separate out the Crown and the people and it becomes English colonial power yet Angevin colonial power was exactly what resided in England at the point of invasion of Ireland but no off you go again it is all the fault of the English. I see you still hold to your definition of what a colony is but cannot bring yourself to define a country which is the basis of your colony definition. Give it a try. I refer you to what the Plantagenets are described as Henry II of England (r. 1154-1189 CE) Richard I of England (r. 1189-1199 CE) King John of England (r. 1199-1216 CE) Plantagenets Henry III of England (r. 1216-1272 CE) Edward I of England (r. 1272-1307 CE) Edward II of England (r. 1307-1327 CE) Edward III of England (r. 1327-1377 CE) Richard II of England (r. 1377-1399 CE) Houses of Lancaster & York Henry IV of England (r. 1399-1413 CE) Henry V of England (r. 1413-1422 CE) Henry VI of England (r. 1422-1461 & 1470-1471 CE) Edward IV of England (r. 1461-1470 & 1471-1483 CE) Richard III of England (r. 1483-1485 CE) Now Henry VIII was King of Ireland Edward was King of Ireland Mary Tudor was Queen of Ireland Elizabeth I was Queen of Ireland. Given above in your view the Kings of England and the English are not invaders and colonists usurping the English throne, in Ireland's case they are colonists usurping the throne. Where is teh consistency in outlook? |
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