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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 18:54:20 GMT
have you? Great , so whats your fall back contention now? You claimed ireland wasn't an English colony , but now appear to be agreeing it was an English colony post the Tudor conquests , just not prior to ? brilliant. we are getting somewhere at last. I accept your climbdown sandy on this point.  No I said Ireland was not a colony of England for over 700 years, I have clarified that several times as the context of my comment makes clear. no you didnt. Here's the order of events. I said.... and your reply... on page five of this thread. You maintained ireland was not a colony of England , but didnt mention you were only talking about the pre Tudor period. so clearly a later tacit admission that ireland was an English colony post Tudor England is a climbdown from your original position above , where you do imply ireland was originally a Norman colony , which I dispute , and fail to mention you accept ireland was an English colony later. of your original post on page five.... |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 18:57:22 GMT
I keep spitting facts at you and you keep being in denial. You denying ireland was Englands colony does not make it so either. Can you explain today why Northern Ireland is ruled in part from the de facto English parliament , and why the English king is monarch of Northern Ireland? The very fact of ireland being an English colony , and settled by colonists on behalf of the English crown is the basis Westminster takes it legitimacy to rule Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom to this day. You can't make claims to rule lands today ,such as Northern Ireland , but deny responsibility for those claims . It wasn't some other big boy who did it and ran away. It was the crown of England past and present , today represented by the power of the crown in parliament that makes a claim on Northern Ireland , as it did 100 years ago on the whole island. Ireland was of course Englands first colony , of which Northern Ireland remains . Not for much longer though. You do not throw facts at me you throw opinions with no links. I also throw facts at you which you tend to ignore. But at least I tell you where they come from and provide links in most cases. Saying a big book said such and such a long time ago is not a fact. Read the treaty of Windsor. Ive posted numerous links , and offered various books and references that I have that aren't online. The treaty of Windsor in 1175 makes clear 12 times ireland is being annexed to the English crown , and the English. There is no mention of ireland being annexed to normandy , or Anjou. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 19:00:28 GMT
that is fucking laughable. You a confirmed British nationalist who voted Brexit , who denigrates anyone not British , talking about furthering divisions of peoples is hilarious. "Denigrate anyone not British"? Hardly. I believe that in the lottery of life as a British person I have been given a winning hand but that neither denigrates anyone else or divides us from anyone else. Why would you believe that Nationalism is a divider and why would you believe that Brexit was a divider. The whole point as regards Nationalism is a multilayered and multifaceted discussion that , as you yourself admit, depends how one views the Unifying power. I view the EU as bad for UK, you view UK as bad for Scotland and EU good for Scotland you implied talking about history in this thread is a way of dividing people. The British aren't an homogenous people , ireland left the uk a century ago , and as I pointed out , a British nationalist talking about divisions after he stuck two fingers up to 450 million europeans in 2016 is fucking laughable. Im Scottish and European. you are British. there is no unity in our viewpoints , and clearly our views were deeply divided long before we encountered each other on this forum or talked about Irish and Scottish history. Yet more diversions and deflections because you dont have an argument against ireland clearly being an English colony. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2024 19:13:21 GMT
I keep spitting facts at you and you keep being in denial. You denying ireland was Englands colony does not make it so either. Can you explain today why Northern Ireland is ruled in part from the de facto English parliament , and why the English king is monarch of Northern Ireland? The very fact of ireland being an English colony , and settled by colonists on behalf of the English crown is the basis Westminster takes it legitimacy to rule Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom to this day. You can't make claims to rule lands today ,such as Northern Ireland , but deny responsibility for those claims . It wasn't some other big boy who did it and ran away. It was the crown of England past and present , today represented by the power of the crown in parliament that makes a claim on Northern Ireland , as it did 100 years ago on the whole island. Ireland was of course Englands first colony , of which Northern Ireland remains . Not for much longer though. You do not throw facts at me you throw opinions with no links. I also throw facts at you which you tend to ignore. But at least I tell you where they come from and provide links in most cases. Saying a big book said such and such a long time ago is not a fact. Very true, but this is the difference between snat hate toward the English and actual academia. All I get are childish gif images and demands to be silent and obedient so they can spew their wrong opinions and propaganda. It's very much a religion for some of them, which is why all that's on offer is their belief system and intolerance to all who questions it. Taking them seriously might give credit to their whiney nonsense, which is why most English folk choose to laugh at them instead. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 19:22:37 GMT
You do not throw facts at me you throw opinions with no links. I also throw facts at you which you tend to ignore. But at least I tell you where they come from and provide links in most cases. Saying a big book said such and such a long time ago is not a fact. Very true, but this is the difference between snat hate toward the English and actual academia. All I get are childish gif images and demands to be silent and obedient so they can spew their wrong opinions and propaganda. It's very much a religion for some of them, which is why all that's on offer is their belief system and intolerance to all who questions it. Taking them seriously might give credit to their whiney nonsense, which is why most English folk choose to laugh at them instead. Talk to me , not to sandy about me troll. Do you have a comment to make that isn't all about how butthurt you are ? I doubt you could point ireland or scotland out on a map . |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2024 19:43:45 GMT
that is fucking laughable. You a confirmed British nationalist who voted Brexit , who denigrates anyone not British , talking about furthering divisions of peoples is hilarious. "Denigrate anyone not British"? Hardly. I believe that in the lottery of life as a British person I have been given a winning hand but that neither denigrates anyone else or divides us from anyone else. Why would you believe that Nationalism is a divider and why would you believe that Brexit was a divider. The whole point as regards Nationalism is a multilayered and multifaceted discussion that , as you yourself admit, depends how one views the Unifying power. I view the EU as bad for UK, you view UK as bad for Scotland and EU good for Scotland They're projecting their hatred onto you, because they're intolerant of all views other than their own. It's a telltale sign of their extremism, which I am sure many good Scottish folk up there are on the receiving end, too. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 19:46:35 GMT
"Denigrate anyone not British"? Hardly. I believe that in the lottery of life as a British person I have been given a winning hand but that neither denigrates anyone else or divides us from anyone else. Why would you believe that Nationalism is a divider and why would you believe that Brexit was a divider. The whole point as regards Nationalism is a multilayered and multifaceted discussion that , as you yourself admit, depends how one views the Unifying power. I view the EU as bad for UK, you view UK as bad for Scotland and EU good for Scotland They're projecting their hatred onto you, because they're intolerant of all views other than their own. It's a telltale sign of their extremism, which I am sure many good Scottish folk up there are on the receiving end, too. Sandys a big boy b4 , and I doubt he needs a low intellect troll like you to hold his hand. |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 3, 2024 20:28:02 GMT
No I said Ireland was not a colony of England for over 700 years, I have clarified that several times as the context of my comment makes clear. no you didnt. Here's the order of events. I said.... and your reply... on page five of this thread. You maintained ireland was not a colony of England , but didnt mention you were only talking about the pre Tudor period. so clearly a later tacit admission that ireland was an English colony post Tudor England is a climbdown from your original position above , where you do imply ireland was originally a Norman colony , which I dispute , and fail to mention you accept ireland was an English colony later. Indeed it was not a colony of England it was a colony of the colonists of England, it became a colony of England as I have agreed in several posts, although the Norman ascendancy is still there, and explained why I agreed many times of this thread which you seem to have missed several times. The problem is that once you invoke England then it is synonymous in many ways with English. You explained why it was a colony by posting info as regards over 700 years and I contend that that is specifically wrong as the invasion was by the colonists of England and carried out by colonial troops and those of a Kingdom of Wales. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 20:32:25 GMT
no you didnt. Here's the order of events. I said.... and your reply... on page five of this thread. You maintained ireland was not a colony of England , but didnt mention you were only talking about the pre Tudor period. so clearly a later tacit admission that ireland was an English colony post Tudor England is a climbdown from your original position above , where you do imply ireland was originally a Norman colony , which I dispute , and fail to mention you accept ireland was an English colony later. Indeed it was not a colony of England it was a colony of the colonists of England, No it was a colony of the English crown. From 1175 onwards , to this present day in Northern Ireland. I accept your climbdown as I said earlier sandy. So what is it you are disagreeing with ? Originally , you said it wasn't an English colony , so what are you backtracking to now? Are you arguing ireland wasn't an English colony between 1175 and 1450 , arguably the end of the Norman period in England? please confirm? |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 3, 2024 20:51:40 GMT
Indeed it was not a colony of England it was a colony of the colonists of England, No it was a colony of the English crown. From 1175 onwards , to this present day in Northern Ireland. I accept your climbdown as I said earlier sandy. So what is it you are disagreeing with ? Originally , you said it wasn't an English colony , so what are you backtracking to now? Are you arguing ireland wasn't an English colony between 1175 and 1450 , arguably the end of the Norman period in England? please confirm? Yes I am. I said it was not an English colony, it was a Norman colony. What is difficult to understand about that? The fact that assimilation, and it is arguable to what degree, occurred and it came under what we all would agree was English rule is a moot point. One could argue the civil war was the turning point as by and large the Norman ascendancy were Royalists and the Yeoman and base workers were the Roundheads. Religion and ethnicity played no small part although it was by then mixed up with class. For some reason Ireland being ruled by foreigners for hundreds of years makes it a colony, England being ruled by foreigners and colonised for just over a hundred years makes it a colonial empire builder. The Empire was Norman/Angevin and England was a colony by your definition. The Irish fought those rulers, the English allowed a degree of assimilation and now pay the historic price by being blamed for it all from day 1. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 21:18:08 GMT
No it was a colony of the English crown. From 1175 onwards , to this present day in Northern Ireland. I accept your climbdown as I said earlier sandy. So what is it you are disagreeing with ? Originally , you said it wasn't an English colony , so what are you backtracking to now? Are you arguing ireland wasn't an English colony between 1175 and 1450 , arguably the end of the Norman period in England? please confirm? Yes I am. I said it was not an English colony, it was a Norman colony. What is difficult to understand about that? The fact that assimilation, and it is arguable to what degree, occurred and it came under what we all would agree was English rule is a moot point. One could argue the civil war was the turning point as by and large the Norman ascendancy were Royalists and the Yeoman and base workers were the Roundheads. Religion and ethnicity played no small part although it was by then mixed up with class. For some reason Ireland being ruled by foreigners for hundreds of years makes it a colony, England being ruled by foreigners and colonised for just over a hundred years makes it a colonial empire builder. The Empire was Norman/Angevin and England was a colony by your definition. The Irish fought those rulers, the English allowed a degree of assimilation and now pay the historic price by being blamed for it all from day 1. can you explain to me clearly which period you now agree ireland was an English colony ,and which period you dont .? |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 3, 2024 21:22:59 GMT
No it was a colony of the English crown. From 1175 onwards , to this present day in Northern Ireland. I accept your climbdown as I said earlier sandy. So what is it you are disagreeing with ? Originally , you said it wasn't an English colony , so what are you backtracking to now? Are you arguing ireland wasn't an English colony between 1175 and 1450 , arguably the end of the Norman period in England? please confirm? Yes I am. I said it was not an English colony, it was a Norman colony. What is difficult to understand about that? The fact that assimilation, and it is arguable to what degree, occurred and it came under what we all would agree was English rule is a moot point. One could argue the civil war was the turning point as by and large the Norman ascendancy were Royalists and the Yeoman and base workers were the Roundheads. Religion and ethnicity played no small part although it was by then mixed up with class. For some reason Ireland being ruled by foreigners for hundreds of years makes it a colony, England being ruled by foreigners and colonised for just over a hundred years makes it a colonial empire builder. The Empire was Norman/Angevin and England was a colony by your definition. The Irish fought those rulers, the English allowed a degree of assimilation and now pay the historic price by being blamed for it all from day 1. It's true that the Normans came here to conquer England. It's also apparent that the snats are desperate to pull all of their cloths off and jump into bed with France to hate on the English and just to cover up these historic facts. Snatism is very perverse and I hope Scotland can save itself from it, for their own sake.
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 21:26:45 GMT
Yes I am. I said it was not an English colony, it was a Norman colony. What is difficult to understand about that? The fact that assimilation, and it is arguable to what degree, occurred and it came under what we all would agree was English rule is a moot point. One could argue the civil war was the turning point as by and large the Norman ascendancy were Royalists and the Yeoman and base workers were the Roundheads. Religion and ethnicity played no small part although it was by then mixed up with class. For some reason Ireland being ruled by foreigners for hundreds of years makes it a colony, England being ruled by foreigners and colonised for just over a hundred years makes it a colonial empire builder. The Empire was Norman/Angevin and England was a colony by your definition. The Irish fought those rulers, the English allowed a degree of assimilation and now pay the historic price by being blamed for it all from day 1. It's true that the Normans came here to conquer England. It's also apparent that the snats are desperate to pull all of their cloths off and jump into bed with France to hate on the English and just to cover up these historic facts. Snatism is very perverse and I hope Scotland can save itself from it, for their own sake.
that's too deep for in here on a Saturday night b4 . |
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Post by morayloon on Feb 4, 2024 1:56:03 GMT
I am trying to follow your logic. England is invaded against her will, has a King installed against her will and is ruled by said invaders for hundreds of years. It is not a colony of the Normans as far as you are concerned at any time. The minute William is crowned in 1066 he is King of England. This royal line then in one hundred years invades Ireland and the King of England, his line having taken England by force, also becomes Lord of Ireland and that becomes a colony of the English. Have you any evidence that the 'lowly English men at arms' were mostly involved. So far what I have read is that Normans and Welsh archers were involved and the Normans in Wales drew their force from local Welsh levies I have not disputed Henry declaring anything but if he declared himself King of Ireland then Ireland was not a colony, it was a Kingdom by your definition whether the locals wanted that King or not. Abolishing old titles is exactly what all invaders have done everywhere. I am not saying Ireland was not invaded just as England was invaded and many countries have been and have invaded what I find strange is this insistence that England, and by default the English, are always the villains in the piece.The default position of hating the English is central to their campaign. Take that away and what's left? Still waiting. |
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Post by morayloon on Feb 4, 2024 2:18:58 GMT
Semantics seems to be the name of the game. The Crown of England was in Norman hands with Norman troops enforcing the law and you still say it was an English Colony in Ireland in the late 12th century. It's like I said before, hating the English and England is paramount. There isn't much else to try and convince the younger generations. Hate is clearly their powerful tool and there isn't much else the snats have to try and convince the kids into growing up to become a hater of the English. I guess this sums up Scottish Nationalist politics, which now appears to be taking lessons from the old IRA lot whilst demanding silence and obedience from those they openly hate.
There isn't a shred of patriotic decency and literally nothing positive to take home form it.
Right! We all know that you are absolutely clueless about the Scottish political scene. If there is such hatred towards the English, why are you having so much difficulty coming up with something to, supposedly, help your argument? You spout phrases like: 'Hating the English'; 'Hate is clearly their powerful tool'; 'To become a hater of the English'; 'from those they openly hate'. Yet, despite repeated requests for info, you have come up with nothing. Your failure leads me to second T's view about your trolling behaviour. |
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