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Post by thomas on Feb 2, 2024 8:53:50 GMT
I love my country and Scotland is part of it. Abolish devolution, introduce PR. We are just about to see a Sinn Fein first minister take office Vinny in another part of your uk .If that happens , far from being the end of devolution , it will be symbolic that the end of your union is approaching. |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 2, 2024 17:51:39 GMT
And it was at that point I asked how do you define a country which for some reason you declined to do but were insistent on defining colony several times. ah is this you back laying the ground to argue yet more semantics rather than addressing the points raised about ireland being Englands first colony.? I think perhaps your wife should buy you a dictionary sandy , as there appears to be a hell of a lot of words in the English language you dont know the meaning of. Are you denying ireland was a country now prior to the English conquests , and colonisations? Semantics seems to be the name of the game. The Crown of England was in Norman hands with Norman troops enforcing the law and you still say it was an English Colony in Ireland in the late 12th century. |
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Post by Deleted on Feb 2, 2024 18:07:23 GMT
ah is this you back laying the ground to argue yet more semantics rather than addressing the points raised about ireland being Englands first colony.? I think perhaps your wife should buy you a dictionary sandy , as there appears to be a hell of a lot of words in the English language you dont know the meaning of. Are you denying ireland was a country now prior to the English conquests , and colonisations? Semantics seems to be the name of the game. The Crown of England was in Norman hands with Norman troops enforcing the law and you still say it was an English Colony in Ireland in the late 12th century. It's like I said before, hating the English and England is paramount. There isn't much else to try and convince the younger generations. Hate is clearly their powerful tool and there isn't much else the snats have to try and convince the kids into growing up to become a hater of the English. I guess this sums up Scottish Nationalist politics, which now appears to be taking lessons from the old IRA lot whilst demanding silence and obedience from those they openly hate.
There isn't a shred of patriotic decency and literally nothing positive to take home form it.
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Post by sandypine on Feb 2, 2024 18:14:05 GMT
You have not shown anything that moves 'the English' into being part of that invasion force Where do you begin? We have lieutenant general Charles Montague , of the English horse accounts of the English armies invasion force marching from armagh in 1598 . Giraldus cambrensis , Expugnatio Hibernica 1185 Gives records of the English as part of the Norman invasion force , and the Irish annals of tighernach give records of the English as part of the Norman invasion force , all under the directions of the English crown. What has 1598 got to do with it, I have already agreed that the Tudors colonised Ireland and that by this time the Norman aristocracy would be assimilated into England. Montague is a Norman name. The Expugnation Hibernica refers, as you say, to Gerald of Wales and is interestingly part of Angevin history and is described as "A detailed account of the Normans coming to Ireland and their claim to its conquest," I can find no reference to English men at arms. Just to correct you all under the direction of the Crown of England at that time. Neither Frank Welsh nor Niall Ferguson refer to any English in the force, that does not mean that none were there as the system at the time meant the Norman overlords could command English serfs to partake in military action. There were something like 50,000 Irishmen in the British army in WW2, they were not an Irish Army. |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 2, 2024 18:19:33 GMT
. The continuity of the English Crown and the English aristocracy is all part of the class system that has been part of England since Norman times. Gradual acceptance of that system and assimilation into it was part of the process of colonisation of England by the Normans this appears to be a tacit admission that ireland was an English colony. It not just myself , as a mere lowly scotsman , who is calling ireland englands first colony. Around the world , people recognise that fact. what the eminent Indian writer Pankaj Mishra had to say regarding ireland and Brexit a few years back... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankaj_Mishra The continuity of the Crown does not mean that it was an English Crown at the time. The British Parliament is centuries old that does not mean it was always the same representation of the people. Pople saying Ireland was England's first colony does not make it so, however saying it was is a way to engender further division between peoples. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 11:35:16 GMT
ah is this you back laying the ground to argue yet more semantics rather than addressing the points raised about ireland being Englands first colony.? I think perhaps your wife should buy you a dictionary sandy , as there appears to be a hell of a lot of words in the English language you dont know the meaning of. Are you denying ireland was a country now prior to the English conquests , and colonisations? Semantics seems to be the name of the game. The Crown of England was in Norman hands with Norman troops enforcing the law and you still say it was an English Colony in Ireland in the late 12th century. deflective nonsense that has absolutely no bearing on the central plank of my argument . Ireland was , and part remains an English colony because since 1175 onwards , the crown of England has claimed ireland , invaded ireland , and colonised ireland . |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 11:38:43 GMT
Semantics seems to be the name of the game. The Crown of England was in Norman hands with Norman troops enforcing the law and you still say it was an English Colony in Ireland in the late 12th century. It's like I said before, hating the English and England is paramount.  |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 11:41:01 GMT
Where do you begin? We have lieutenant general Charles Montague , of the English horse accounts of the English armies invasion force marching from armagh in 1598 . Giraldus cambrensis , Expugnatio Hibernica 1185 Gives records of the English as part of the Norman invasion force , and the Irish annals of tighernach give records of the English as part of the Norman invasion force , all under the directions of the English crown. What has 1598 got to do with it, I have already agreed that the Tudors colonised Ireland have you? Great , so whats your fall back contention now? You claimed ireland wasn't an English colony , but now appear to be agreeing it was an English colony post the Tudor conquests , just not prior to ? brilliant. we are getting somewhere at last. I accept your climbdown sandy on this point.  |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 11:43:43 GMT
Where do you begin? We have lieutenant general Charles Montague , of the English horse accounts of the English armies invasion force marching from armagh in 1598 . Giraldus cambrensis , Expugnatio Hibernica 1185 Gives records of the English as part of the Norman invasion force , and the Irish annals of tighernach give records of the English as part of the Norman invasion force , all under the directions of the English crown. The Expugnation Hibernica refers, as you say, to Gerald of Wales and is interestingly part of Angevin history and is described as "A detailed account of the Normans coming to Ireland and their claim to its conquest," I can find no reference to English men at arms. Just to correct you all under the direction of the Crown of England at that time. Neither Frank Welsh nor Niall Ferguson refer to any English in the force, that does not mean that none were there as the system at the time meant the Norman overlords could command English serfs to partake in military action. There were something like 50,000 Irishmen in the British army in WW2, they were not an Irish Army. more deflective nonsense that has absolutely no bearing on the central part of my argument , that ireland was annexed and ceded to the English crown , and that all subsequent claims of English rule , English invasions and English colonisation was done subsequently from the 1175 treaty. Northern Ireland isn't part of normandy sandy , and isn't ruled from the French parliament is it? |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 11:46:18 GMT
this appears to be a tacit admission that ireland was an English colony. It not just myself , as a mere lowly scotsman , who is calling ireland englands first colony. Around the world , people recognise that fact. what the eminent Indian writer Pankaj Mishra had to say regarding ireland and Brexit a few years back... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankaj_Mishra The continuity of the Crown does not mean that it was an English Crown at the time. what was the English crown if it isn't English ? Are you now denying Henry the second was king of England? |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 11:51:45 GMT
this appears to be a tacit admission that ireland was an English colony. It not just myself , as a mere lowly scotsman , who is calling ireland englands first colony. Around the world , people recognise that fact. what the eminent Indian writer Pankaj Mishra had to say regarding ireland and Brexit a few years back... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankaj_Mishra Pople saying Ireland was England's first colony does not make it so, however saying it was is a way to engender further division between peoples. I keep spitting facts at you and you keep being in denial. You denying ireland was Englands colony does not make it so either. Can you explain today why Northern Ireland is ruled in part from the de facto English parliament , and why the English king is monarch of Northern Ireland? The very fact of ireland being an English colony , and settled by colonists on behalf of the English crown is the basis Westminster takes it legitimacy to rule Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom to this day. You can't make claims to rule lands today ,such as Northern Ireland , but deny responsibility for those claims . It wasn't some other big boy who did it and ran away. It was the crown of England past and present , today represented by the power of the crown in parliament that makes a claim on Northern Ireland , as it did 100 years ago on the whole island. Ireland was of course Englands first colony , of which Northern Ireland remains . Not for much longer though. |
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Post by thomas on Feb 3, 2024 11:53:21 GMT
this appears to be a tacit admission that ireland was an English colony. It not just myself , as a mere lowly scotsman , who is calling ireland englands first colony. Around the world , people recognise that fact. what the eminent Indian writer Pankaj Mishra had to say regarding ireland and Brexit a few years back... en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pankaj_Mishra however saying it was is a way to engender further division between peoples. that is fucking laughable. You a confirmed British nationalist who voted Brexit , who denigrates anyone not British , talking about furthering divisions of peoples is hilarious. |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 3, 2024 16:35:49 GMT
What has 1598 got to do with it, I have already agreed that the Tudors colonised Ireland have you? Great , so whats your fall back contention now? You claimed ireland wasn't an English colony , but now appear to be agreeing it was an English colony post the Tudor conquests , just not prior to ? brilliant. we are getting somewhere at last. I accept your climbdown sandy on this point. No I said Ireland was not a colony of England for over 700 years, I have clarified that several times as the context of my comment makes clear. I have also said I accepted the Tudor reinvasion, or whatever you wish to call it, several times and have never had issue with that point. My argument is, and has always been, that Ireland was not invaded by the English, in the late 12th century, it was invaded by the colonists of England, the definition of colony and colonists you have also confirmed several times. In that respect the claims and counter claims as regards Ireland are the making of the Normans and not the English. The English inherited those claims by assimilation of the Norman aristocracy in a rather oblique way becoming the English aristocracy |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 3, 2024 16:39:16 GMT
Pople saying Ireland was England's first colony does not make it so, however saying it was is a way to engender further division between peoples. I keep spitting facts at you and you keep being in denial. You denying ireland was Englands colony does not make it so either. Can you explain today why Northern Ireland is ruled in part from the de facto English parliament , and why the English king is monarch of Northern Ireland? The very fact of ireland being an English colony , and settled by colonists on behalf of the English crown is the basis Westminster takes it legitimacy to rule Northern Ireland as a part of the United Kingdom to this day. You can't make claims to rule lands today ,such as Northern Ireland , but deny responsibility for those claims . It wasn't some other big boy who did it and ran away. It was the crown of England past and present , today represented by the power of the crown in parliament that makes a claim on Northern Ireland , as it did 100 years ago on the whole island. Ireland was of course Englands first colony , of which Northern Ireland remains . Not for much longer though. You do not throw facts at me you throw opinions with no links. I also throw facts at you which you tend to ignore. But at least I tell you where they come from and provide links in most cases. Saying a big book said such and such a long time ago is not a fact. |
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Post by sandypine on Feb 3, 2024 16:46:35 GMT
however saying it was is a way to engender further division between peoples. that is fucking laughable. You a confirmed British nationalist who voted Brexit , who denigrates anyone not British , talking about furthering divisions of peoples is hilarious. "Denigrate anyone not British"? Hardly. I believe that in the lottery of life as a British person I have been given a winning hand but that neither denigrates anyone else or divides us from anyone else. Why would you believe that Nationalism is a divider and why would you believe that Brexit was a divider. The whole point as regards Nationalism is a multilayered and multifaceted discussion that , as you yourself admit, depends how one views the Unifying power. I view the EU as bad for UK, you view UK as bad for Scotland and EU good for Scotland |
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