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Post by patman post on Jan 20, 2024 20:17:56 GMT
Seems to me that Tice's Reform is Starmer's best ally. If Reform carries out its threat to stand against every Tory candidate, many dissatisfied Tory voters are likely to vote Reform rather than LibDem or Labour The outcome could be the Conservatives out of office and Labour in power for at least two decades...would we notice? If too many take that view, when election time comes they could easily decide to change brands, though which brand they'll choose — if they bother with two "dull as dishwater"** leaders heading the main parties.
(In a local by-election in Hackney, Labour lost its 100% grip on Cazanove ward to a Tory — who's changed Party several Times and religion at least once — and polled more votes than Green, Labour, LibDem candidates together***, so it's still Labour's to lose if they handle things wrong...)
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 20, 2024 22:46:18 GMT
If too many take that view, when election time comes they could easily decide to change brands, though which brand they'll choose — if they bother with two "dull as dishwater"** leaders heading the main parties.
(In a local by-election in Hackney, Labour lost its 100% grip on Cazanove ward to a Tory — who's changed Party several Times and religion at least once — and polled more votes than Green, Labour, LibDem candidates together***, so it's still Labour's to lose if they handle things wrong...)
but lose to what? - just another left of centre party that implements all the same policies. why does it matter? |
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Post by andrewbrown on Jan 20, 2024 23:54:42 GMT
Competence. The Tories have been shown to have none over a period of time now.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jan 21, 2024 1:45:36 GMT
Competence. The Tories have been shown to have none over a period of time now. How much competence do you expect out of the various Labour shadow ministers?
By the way, don't take this as a disagreement on Tory competence. I just wonder if the other lot will be any better.
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Post by andrewbrown on Jan 21, 2024 1:55:50 GMT
Competence. The Tories have been shown to have none over a period of time now. How much competence do you expect out of the various Labour shadow ministers?
By the way, don't take this as a disagreement on Tory competence. I just wonder if the other lot will be any better.
Unknown as yet, but it can't be worse. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jan 21, 2024 2:28:17 GMT
How much competence do you expect out of the various Labour shadow ministers?
By the way, don't take this as a disagreement on Tory competence. I just wonder if the other lot will be any better.
Unknown as yet, but it can't be worse. Don't bet on it. In fact Sod's law has been a reliable predictor so far. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 21, 2024 7:44:07 GMT
How much competence do you expect out of the various Labour shadow ministers?
By the way, don't take this as a disagreement on Tory competence. I just wonder if the other lot will be any better.
Unknown as yet, but it can't be worse. ever been to Wales? |
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Post by thomas on Jan 21, 2024 8:30:00 GMT
Competence. The Tories have been shown to have none over a period of time now. or labour in Wales it must be pointed out , where they have been in charge for nigh on a quarter of a century. Throw muck at the tories Andrew , they deserve it , but lets not stay silent on labour , which is Pacificos point about how both parties are incompetently the same. |
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Post by patman post on Jan 21, 2024 15:13:03 GMT
If too many take that view, when election time comes they could easily decide to change brands, though which brand they'll choose — if they bother with two "dull as dishwater"** leaders heading the main parties.
(In a local by-election in Hackney, Labour lost its 100% grip on Cazanove ward to a Tory — who's changed Party several Times and religion at least once — and polled more votes than Green, Labour, LibDem candidates together***, so it's still Labour's to lose if they handle things wrong...)
but lose to what? - just another left of centre party that implements all the same policies. why does it matter? Judging by the text you’ve put in bold, I’m not sure you actually understood that particular point. However, I disagree with what appears to be your classifications of Left and Centre, and I note you don’t identify these “same policies”. At the moment it looks like Starmer is in charge of the Labour Party, while the parliamentary Tory party (under threat from its internal and external Far Right) is in charge of Sunak. In the years I’ve been politically aware, my opinion is that Britain’s voters are overall moderate and governments have mostly selected by a moving centre. Outlier extreme movements (eg, BNP, Militant, Momentum, NF, etc) may have had temporary impact and gathered vocal support. But elections seem to have been won and lost over what’s affected and/or threatened the comfort and well-being of the majority of voters. Currently rising prices/cost of living/inflation (however it’s termed), high taxation, together with strikes and problems across the board with health care are the main factors concerning people. Despite that, the Tories are still trying to push immigration as the main issue while trying to ignore the fact that they’ve been in charge for the last 13 years. If voters believe Labour will address the cost of living, health and strikes they stand a good chance of being the next government… |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 21, 2024 16:29:29 GMT
but lose to what? - just another left of centre party that implements all the same policies. why does it matter? Judging by the text you’ve put in bold, I’m not sure you actually understood that particular point. However, I disagree with what appears to be your classifications of Left and Centre, and I note you don’t identify these “same policies”.
At the moment it looks like Starmer is in charge of the Labour Party, while the parliamentary Tory party (under threat from its internal and external Far Right) is in charge of Sunak. In the years I’ve been politically aware, my opinion is that Britain’s voters are overall moderate and governments have mostly selected by a moving centre. Outlier extreme movements (eg, BNP, Militant, Momentum, NF, etc) may have had temporary impact and gathered vocal support. But elections seem to have been won and lost over what’s affected and/or threatened the comfort and well-being of the majority of voters. Currently rising prices/cost of living/inflation (however it’s termed), high taxation, together with strikes and problems across the board with health care are the main factors concerning people. Despite that, the Tories are still trying to push immigration as the main issue while trying to ignore the fact that they’ve been in charge for the last 13 years. If voters believe Labour will address the cost of living, health and strikes they stand a good chance of being the next government… What are the big policy differences?. Both parties are fully paid up to all the net Zero nonsense, both believe in the same level of taxation, both want mass immigration, both want more spending on the NHS, both want all the EDI twaddle.. etc.etc. I would love someone to tell me what these great policy differences are because I cannot see them. If the answer is that the policies are the same but Labour would implement them better then I fall back on my usual question - Have you ever been to Wales? |
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Post by patman post on Jan 21, 2024 17:26:23 GMT
Judging by the text you’ve put in bold, I’m not sure you actually understood that particular point. However, I disagree with what appears to be your classifications of Left and Centre, and I note you don’t identify these “same policies”.
At the moment it looks like Starmer is in charge of the Labour Party, while the parliamentary Tory party (under threat from its internal and external Far Right) is in charge of Sunak. In the years I’ve been politically aware, my opinion is that Britain’s voters are overall moderate and governments have mostly selected by a moving centre. Outlier extreme movements (eg, BNP, Militant, Momentum, NF, etc) may have had temporary impact and gathered vocal support. But elections seem to have been won and lost over what’s affected and/or threatened the comfort and well-being of the majority of voters. Currently rising prices/cost of living/inflation (however it’s termed), high taxation, together with strikes and problems across the board with health care are the main factors concerning people. Despite that, the Tories are still trying to push immigration as the main issue while trying to ignore the fact that they’ve been in charge for the last 13 years. If voters believe Labour will address the cost of living, health and strikes they stand a good chance of being the next government… What are the big policy differences?. Both parties are fully paid up to all the net Zero nonsense, both believe in the same level of taxation, both want mass immigration, both want more spending on the NHS, both want all the EDI twaddle.. etc.etc. I would love someone to tell me what these great policy differences are because I cannot see them. If the answer is that the policies are the same but Labour would implement them better then I fall back on my usual question - Have you ever been to Wales? In 2010, the NHS had its highest public approval rating since surveys began when Labour was in power. But in 2023, the NHS had the lowest public approval rating since surveys began.
If their policies are the same, that one example alone would appear to suggest that the public could believe Labour are likely to achieve better outcomes...
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 21, 2024 18:19:07 GMT
What are the big policy differences?. Both parties are fully paid up to all the net Zero nonsense, both believe in the same level of taxation, both want mass immigration, both want more spending on the NHS, both want all the EDI twaddle.. etc.etc. I would love someone to tell me what these great policy differences are because I cannot see them. If the answer is that the policies are the same but Labour would implement them better then I fall back on my usual question - Have you ever been to Wales? In 2010, the NHS had its highest public approval rating since surveys began when Labour was in power. But in 2023, the NHS had the lowest public approval rating since surveys began.
If their policies are the same, that one example alone would appear to suggest that the public could believe Labour are likely to achieve better outcomes...
So why is the Labour run NHS in Wales worse than the Tory run NHS in England? It's all very well claiming that Labour are better at running things but experience suggests otherwise. Which your kind link actually proves.. levels of satisfaction in England (36 per cent), Scotland (33 per cent) and Wales (34 per cent). |
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Post by patman post on Jan 21, 2024 20:00:14 GMT
In 2010, the NHS had its highest public approval rating since surveys began when Labour was in power. But in 2023, the NHS had the lowest public approval rating since surveys began.
If their policies are the same, that one example alone would appear to suggest that the public could believe Labour are likely to achieve better outcomes...
So why is the Labour run NHS in Wales worse than the Tory run NHS in England? It's all very well claiming that Labour are better at running things but experience suggests otherwise. Which your kind link actually proves.. levels of satisfaction in England (36 per cent), Scotland (33 per cent) and Wales (34 per cent).
The results showed that overall satisfaction with the way the NHS across Britain runs fell by 12 percentage points from 70 per cent in 2010 to 58 per cent in 2011.
From my link...
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 21, 2024 22:30:16 GMT
So why is the Labour run NHS in Wales worse than the Tory run NHS in England? It's all very well claiming that Labour are better at running things but experience suggests otherwise. Which your kind link actually proves.. levels of satisfaction in England (36 per cent), Scotland (33 per cent) and Wales (34 per cent).
The results showed that overall satisfaction with the way the NHS across Britain runs fell by 12 percentage points from 70 per cent in 2010 to 58 per cent in 2011.
From my link...
Yes - and satisfaction was worse in the Labour run part of it. If you believe that is an example of how Labour run things better perhaps you need to sit in a quiet room with a stiff drink. |
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Post by thomas on Jan 22, 2024 7:46:34 GMT
2011 survey
The results showed that overall satisfaction with the way the NHS across Britain runs fell by 12 percentage points from 70 per cent in 2010 to 58 per cent in 2011.
From my link...
Yes - and satisfaction was worse in the Labour run part of it. If you believe that is an example of how Labour run things better perhaps you need to sit in a quiet room with a stiff drink. I dont really get what patman is trying to gibber about. while there is an argument that satisfaction with the nhs in all the uk countries has fallen , and many mitigating circumstance for that including the covid debacle , the idea labour run the nhs better is fucking laughable. im reminded of this old wings over Scotland article from the pre covid years regarding medical negligence , and how in practically every comparable measure , labours welsh nhs was worse than their counterparts in both Scotland and England..... For Labours NHS Wales the average from 2008-2016 was approximately £56.4m a year. If Scotland’s population was the same as that of Wales – ie 40% smaller – the Scottish figure would be £21m, so again negligence is costing NHS Wales about two and a half times as much per head as Scotland.
For simplicity, that would make the per-head-per-year costs of negligence:
NHS Wales: £18.84
NHS England: £18.27
NHS Scotland: £6.60.
wingsoverscotland.com/the-provision-of-context/#more-101062 |
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