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Post by dappy on Jan 12, 2024 13:12:11 GMT
I would examine laws operating around the world, consider how they have worked in practice and copy those that seemed to have worked best. See the link I gave you a couple of pages ago. Canada law seems about right at first glance but if I was implementing I would want to study more deeply
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Post by Orac on Jan 12, 2024 13:12:21 GMT
As i have explained twice, the word coerce is not a particular good one here because nobody is talking about the prospect threatening someone to make them commit suicide. It would be better to talk about manipulation or just the existence of emotional pressure (sans any intention). However, you seem happy enough with a straw-man and your attitude explains the low quality of many of your opinions Are you suggesting that all the evil relatives doing this have been successful and not one victim of this abuse has complained? If you are emotionally manipulated or pressured to perform an action to end your life, you aren't going to complain. Who would you complain to and when? In many cases, the pressure is exerted merely by the presence of the option and actions by the relatives that are perfectly legal and un-noteworthy. Trying to pretend this pressure isn't a logical corollary of the option being available is just silly. Your case can be made or defended without denying reality, but what you seem to seeking is a kind of unambiguous moral win - and it just isn't there |
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Post by dappy on Jan 12, 2024 13:17:17 GMT
Again Orac you assert pressure would happen but can find no evidence to suggest it is a problem in countries where assisted death is legal. It is plainly silly to suggest that people being pressured to die against their will would usually have no opportunity to complain of this - other family members, friends, doctors, nurses, care home staff, etc etc . I think you may be clutching too long at a breaking straw of an argument when your real objection to this policy is elsewhere.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 12, 2024 13:22:45 GMT
If you actually read my posts you might , just might , realise that I’m not ignoring it. Do you want depressives ,depressed divorced people,.people who feel estranged from society etc to have the right to assisted suicide ? It's just a sad fact that there is no right or wrong answer to this issue. I can see both sides of the argument. That said, without giving it much thought, I can see one advantage to giving the people you name the right to assisted suicide. Many of these people currently die by their own hand, leaving loved ones asking why and wishing they had reached out for help. If assisted suicide was available, there would be the opportunity to offer help when the application is made. Just a stray thought. Yes. If access to assisted suicide was available outside of the one that seems to be proffered ie dying patients suffering unacceptable physical and or mental pain . |
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 12, 2024 13:24:24 GMT
Again Orac you assert pressure would happen but can find no evidence to suggest it is a problem in countries where assisted death is legal. It is plainly silly to suggest that people being pressured to die against their will would usually have no opportunity to complain of this - other family members, friends, doctors, nurses, care home staff, etc etc . I think you may be clutching too long at a breaking straw of an argument when your real objection to this policy is elsewhere. May I ask where you think the real objection lies, Dappy? Apologies if you've already mentioned this in the thread, but it's rather long. It is a fact that old people are especially vulnerable to being pressured into doing things they might not otherwise do. Wills and property transactions are frequently set aside for 'undue influence' by designing relatives. The problem, I suppose, is to find failsafe ways of ensuring real consent. It can't be beyond the wit of man to devise a means, but I have to admit there isn't one that is obvious to me. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 13:25:02 GMT
Again Orac you assert pressure would happen but can find no evidence to suggest it is a problem in countries where assisted death is legal. It is plainly silly to suggest that people being pressured to die against their will would usually have no opportunity to complain of this - other family members, friends, doctors, nurses, care home staff, etc etc . I think you may be clutching too long at a breaking straw of an argument when your real objection to this policy is elsewhere. Maybe they can complain at the seance. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 12, 2024 13:37:20 GMT
Imo the closer one gets to death , the easier it would be to justify.
If uncle Charlie is dying of cancer , in pain and delirious from the morphine then the delusion is simple .
If uncle Charlie keeps telling his kids that he wants to die because he has nothing to live for since his wife died and his cat was put down then not so much .
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Post by dappy on Jan 12, 2024 13:41:05 GMT
Again Orac you assert pressure would happen but can find no evidence to suggest it is a problem in countries where assisted death is legal. It is plainly silly to suggest that people being pressured to die against their will would usually have no opportunity to complain of this - other family members, friends, doctors, nurses, care home staff, etc etc . I think you may be clutching too long at a breaking straw of an argument when your real objection to this policy is elsewhere. May I ask where you think the real objection lies, Dappy? Apologies if you've already mentioned this in the thread, but it's rather long. It is a fact that old people are especially vulnerable to being pressured into doing things they might not otherwise do. Wills and property transactions are frequently set aside for 'undue influence' by designing relatives. The problem, I suppose, is to find failsafe ways of ensuring real consent. It can't be beyond the wit of man to devise a means, but I have to admit there isn't one that is obvious to me. I believe Orac’s real objection is on moral religious grounds. I agree this is a difficult issue and am glad we are not the first jurisdiction to deal with this. If pressure from relatives on vulnerable people to do something they don’t really wish to do had shown itself as a material issue in countries where assisted death was allowed, I agree it would be a major impediment to adopting the policy here. As far as I know though, it hasn’t. |
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Post by dappy on Jan 12, 2024 13:42:29 GMT
Imo the closer one gets to death , the easier it would be to justify. If uncle Charlie is dying of cancer , in pain and delirious from the morphine then the delusion is simple . If uncle Charlie keeps telling his kids that he wants to die because he has nothing to live for since his wife died and his cat was put down then not so much . We may be closer to agreement on this matter than was earlier apparent. |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 12, 2024 16:19:22 GMT
I wasn't attempting to refute it. I was pointing out the other side of the coin which you keep ignoring. What about the people who do want to finish their lives? If you actually read my posts you might , just might , realise that I’m not ignoring it. Do you want depressives ,depressed divorced people,.people who feel estranged from society etc to have the right to assisted suicide ? That depends on how long they have wanted to end their lives and whether action to help them has failed to change their minds. But my original idea was a living will, which is a predetermined thing where you lay a set of conditions that may come about and set in motion others to end your life. Hence, if I am unable to recognise my wife.. |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 12, 2024 16:30:14 GMT
I think the proposal I would support would limit the assistance element to medical practitioners with a proscribed list of circumstances where such assistance would be permitted. I prefer a pre written will laying out conditions when someone would not wish to continue living. This is particularly important with dementia where you may not be aware of your circumstance but not wish to be a living vegetable your partner has to care or. However I would expect even living wills to have limitations. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 12, 2024 16:43:10 GMT
If you actually read my posts you might , just might , realise that I’m not ignoring it. Do you want depressives ,depressed divorced people,.people who feel estranged from society etc to have the right to assisted suicide ? That depends on how long they have wanted to end their lives and whether action to help them has failed to change their minds. But my original idea was a living will, which is a predetermined thing where you lay a set of conditions that may come about and set in motion others to end your life. Hence, if I am unable to recognise my wife.. So you want to make a binding decision that you might not want to do in say 20 years time but can’t be reversed because you cannot articulate it ? |
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 12, 2024 16:56:18 GMT
That depends on how long they have wanted to end their lives and whether action to help them has failed to change their minds. But my original idea was a living will, which is a predetermined thing where you lay a set of conditions that may come about and set in motion others to end your life. Hence, if I am unable to recognise my wife.. So you want to make a binding decision that you might not want to do in say 20 years time but can’t be reversed because you cannot articulate it ? That makes no sense. Zany said he wants the pills precisely because he can no longer articulate it (and this condition makes him a burden). |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 12, 2024 17:21:06 GMT
That depends on how long they have wanted to end their lives and whether action to help them has failed to change their minds. But my original idea was a living will, which is a predetermined thing where you lay a set of conditions that may come about and set in motion others to end your life. Hence, if I am unable to recognise my wife.. So you want to make a binding decision that you might not want to do in say 20 years time but can’t be reversed because you cannot articulate it ? Of course you can rescind it if you wish. Just like any will. But what you are asking is : If I make a will saying I want to end my life when I am no longer sentient. Then having reached the point where I am no longer sentient, that I might wish to reverse it. Are you for real? |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 12, 2024 17:22:09 GMT
So you want to make a binding decision that you might not want to do in say 20 years time but can’t be reversed because you cannot articulate it ? That makes no sense. Zany said he wants the pills precisely because he can no longer articulate it (and this condition makes him a burden). Yep. That and my own unawareness of my situation. |
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