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Post by dappy on Jan 11, 2024 22:20:32 GMT
On the contrary.
You have been repeatedly asked to show evidence that a significant number of people in countries where assisted dying is legal are coerced into taking their own lives against their will by selfish relatives.
You have failed abjectly to provide any such evidence trying to justify your failure by arguing that it would be impossible to know.
That argument would of course only stand up if the coercion was universally successful and none of the people being coerced complained of the coercion to the authorities. With respect that’s a silly argument.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2024 22:33:37 GMT
On the contrary. You have been repeatedly asked to show evidence that a significant number of people in countries where assisted dying is legal are coerced into taking their own lives against their will by selfish relatives. You have failed abjectly to provide any such evidence trying to justify your failure by arguing that it would be impossible to know. That argument would of course only stand up if the coercion was universally successful and none of the people being coerced complained of the coercion to the authorities. With respect that’s a silly argument. There is the potential for all kinds of coercion and where there is potential then it will happen . Until there is extensive research into this there is only opinion and assumptions left …on both sides . That is why we must approach this with caution and not emotion ie my uncle Fred died slowly when he could have died quickly …. Let’s encourage suicide . |
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Post by Orac on Jan 11, 2024 22:44:25 GMT
On the contrary. You have been repeatedly asked to show evidence that a significant number of people in countries where assisted dying is legal are coerced into taking their own lives against their will by selfish relatives. As i have explained twice, the word coerce is not a particular good one here because nobody is talking about the prospect threatening someone to make them commit suicide. It would be better to talk about manipulation or just the existence of emotional pressure (sans any intention). However, you seem happy enough with a straw-man and your attitude explains the low quality of many of your opinions |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 11, 2024 22:52:19 GMT
On the contrary. You have been repeatedly asked to show evidence that a significant number of people in countries where assisted dying is legal are coerced into taking their own lives against their will by selfish relatives. You have failed abjectly to provide any such evidence trying to justify your failure by arguing that it would be impossible to know. That argument would of course only stand up if the coercion was universally successful and none of the people being coerced complained of the coercion to the authorities. With respect that’s a silly argument. There is the potential for all kinds of coercion and where there is potential then it will happen . Until there is extensive research into this there is only opinion and assumptions left …on both sides . That is why we must approach this with caution and not emotion ie my uncle Fred died slowly when he could have died quickly …. Let’s encourage suicide . There is potential for so many things, just saying there is doesn't make it so. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2024 22:58:21 GMT
There is the potential for all kinds of coercion and where there is potential then it will happen . Until there is extensive research into this there is only opinion and assumptions left …on both sides . That is why we must approach this with caution and not emotion ie my uncle Fred died slowly when he could have died quickly …. Let’s encourage suicide . There is potential for so many things, just saying there is doesn't make it so. It makes it more likely and a reason for caution . Old people are vulnerable. we shouldn’t encourage then to commit suicide because of emotion and virtue signalling ( oh my uncle Charlie suffered so let’s encourage old people to kill themselves ) . |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 11, 2024 23:29:48 GMT
There is potential for so many things, just saying there is doesn't make it so. It makes it more likely and a reason for caution . Old people are vulnerable. we shouldn’t encourage then to commit suicide because of emotion and virtue signalling ( oh my uncle Charlie suffered so let’s encourage old people to kill themselves ) . People like my mum need no encouragement, she wants to go. As do so many others. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2024 23:35:26 GMT
It makes it more likely and a reason for caution . Old people are vulnerable. we shouldn’t encourage then to commit suicide because of emotion and virtue signalling ( oh my uncle Charlie suffered so let’s encourage old people to kill themselves ) . People like my mum need no encouragement, she wants to go. As do so many others. That doesn’t refute my point . |
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Post by Vanna on Jan 12, 2024 8:26:20 GMT
It makes it more likely and a reason for caution . Old people are vulnerable. we shouldn’t encourage then to commit suicide because of emotion and virtue signalling ( oh my uncle Charlie suffered so let’s encourage old people to kill themselves ) . People like my mum need no encouragement, she wants to go. As do so many others. Agree. They should have that right. |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 12, 2024 8:28:59 GMT
People like my mum need no encouragement, she wants to go. As do so many others. That doesn’t refute my point . I wasn't attempting to refute it. I was pointing out the other side of the coin which you keep ignoring. What about the people who do want to finish their lives? |
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Post by dappy on Jan 12, 2024 12:39:34 GMT
On the contrary. You have been repeatedly asked to show evidence that a significant number of people in countries where assisted dying is legal are coerced into taking their own lives against their will by selfish relatives. As i have explained twice, the word coerce is not a particular good one here because nobody is talking about the prospect threatening someone to make them commit suicide. It would be better to talk about manipulation or just the existence of emotional pressure (sans any intention). However, you seem happy enough with a straw-man and your attitude explains the low quality of many of your opinions Whatever word yo want to use, there is n evidence as far as I am aware that significant numbers of people have been "manipulated" or "emotionally pressured" into taking their life when seriously ill when they are not ready to do so. Are you suggesting that all the evil relatives doing this have been successful and not one victim of this abuse has complained? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 12, 2024 12:48:03 GMT
That doesn’t refute my point . I wasn't attempting to refute it. I was pointing out the other side of the coin which you keep ignoring. What about the people who do want to finish their lives? Maybe they're just having a bad day. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 12, 2024 12:52:02 GMT
That doesn’t refute my point . I wasn't attempting to refute it. I was pointing out the other side of the coin which you keep ignoring. What about the people who do want to finish their lives? If you actually read my posts you might , just might , realise that I’m not ignoring it. Do you want depressives ,depressed divorced people,.people who feel estranged from society etc to have the right to assisted suicide ? |
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Post by dappy on Jan 12, 2024 13:00:11 GMT
I think the proposal I would support would limit the assistance element to medical practitioners with a proscribed list of circumstances where such assistance would be permitted.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 12, 2024 13:05:35 GMT
I think the proposal I would support would limit the assistance element to medical practitioners with a proscribed list of circumstances where such assistance would be permitted. What circumstances? |
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Post by Einhorn on Jan 12, 2024 13:11:24 GMT
I wasn't attempting to refute it. I was pointing out the other side of the coin which you keep ignoring. What about the people who do want to finish their lives? If you actually read my posts you might , just might , realise that I’m not ignoring it. Do you want depressives ,depressed divorced people,.people who feel estranged from society etc to have the right to assisted suicide ? It's just a sad fact that there is no right or wrong answer to this issue. I can see both sides of the argument. That said, without giving it much thought, I can see one advantage to giving the people you name the right to assisted suicide. Many of these people currently die by their own hand, leaving loved ones asking why and wishing they had reached out for help. If assisted suicide was available, there would be the opportunity to offer help when the application is made. Just a stray thought. |
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