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Post by Orac on Jan 11, 2024 17:54:54 GMT
Of course this is a difficult moral issue with difficulties whichever way we go. The argument you and Bentley are using is that there would undoubtedly be large scale coercion encouraging elderly people to take their lives from beneficiary greed. There seems to be no evidence whatsoever from other countries that have adopted the right to die to support the concept that this would be a serious issue. I suspect though that this is not your real objection to the concept. This was presented earlier, but is entirely naive. Relatives are not in a position to do, or threaten, anything that would provide evidence and the nature of 'moral, emotional pressure' would leave no evidence. You have also used the word coercion, which would normally mean an the twisting of an arm behind the back. This is not what is meant . |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2024 17:56:55 GMT
Of course this is a difficult moral issue with difficulties whichever way we go. The argument you and Bentley are using is that there would undoubtedly be large scale coercion encouraging elderly people to take their lives from beneficiary greed. There seems to be no evidence whatsoever from other countries that have adopted the right to die to support the concept that this would be a serious issue. I suspect though that this is not your real objection to the concept.There are no easy answers here. Anyone who has made the agonising decision to end the life of a much loved pet now in distress will know how difficult that is. It must be considered likely that it would be even harder to be involved in the choice of death for a much loved relative. Yet we accept for animals that sometimes their physical condition means that the life they are now living is no longer better than the alternative. It is hard to understand why, if we can show that maturity and compassion towards animals, we are unable to show similar maturity and compassion with human beings. Yes there would need to be controls and safeguards - and in this respect rather than reinventing the wheel we would be well advised to study and learn the lessons from the experience of countries that have done this but while this is indeed a difficult moral area, the benefits of helping people in need seem to me to be overwhelming. There would be the potential for larger scale coercion . You have no idea how much coercion occurs in countries that have adopted ‘ the right to die …support’ because you cannot find any exhaustive studies . I also pointed out that there are many kinds of coercion. It seems anyone who is suspicious about running full pelt at encouraging suicide has an ulterior motive in your opinion . |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2024 17:58:08 GMT
Of course this is a difficult moral issue with difficulties whichever way we go. The argument you and Bentley are using is that there would undoubtedly be large scale coercion encouraging elderly people to take their lives from beneficiary greed. There seems to be no evidence whatsoever from other countries that have adopted the right to die to support the concept that this would be a serious issue. I suspect though that this is not your real objection to the concept. This was presented earlier, but is entirely naive. Relatives are not in a position to do, or threaten, anything that would provide evidence and the nature of 'moral, emotional pressure' would leave no evidence. You have also used the word coercion, which would normally mean a the twisting of an arm behind the back. This is not what is meant .Exactly . |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2024 18:06:15 GMT
If there is a societal change that encourages suicide ( otherwise known as the right to die…support) then that may change how treatment of the elderly , including palliative care is viewed and applied to patients.
It might mission creep into depressives and mentally ill patients too.
Assisted suicide should not be something taken lightly.
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Post by zanygame on Jan 11, 2024 18:06:41 GMT
This was presented earlier, but is entirely naive. Relatives are not in a position to do, or threaten, anything that would provide evidence and the nature of 'moral, emotional pressure' would leave no evidence. You have also used the word coercion, which would normally mean a the twisting of an arm behind the back. This is not what is meant .Exactly . So thousands who want to die can just sit and rot. Neither you nor Orac offer any alternative, just "It will be misused" |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2024 18:09:01 GMT
So thousands who want to die can just sit and rot. Neither you nor Orac offer any alternative, just "It will be misused" Nope. It should be viewed with caution . Not through the prism of how your uncle Charlie died slowly when he could have died quickly . |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 11, 2024 20:04:25 GMT
So thousands who want to die can just sit and rot. Neither you nor Orac offer any alternative, just "It will be misused" Nope. It should be viewed with caution . Not through the prism of how your uncle Charlie died slowly when he could have died quickly . So what are your suggestions? And anecdotal evidence does not mean stand alone evidence. More than 75% want the right to die.  |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2024 21:04:25 GMT
Nope. It should be viewed with caution . Not through the prism of how your uncle Charlie died slowly when he could have died quickly . So what are your suggestions? And anecdotal evidence does not mean stand alone evidence. More than 75% want the right to die. They want the principle. Where does it say that they don’t want to a cautious approach ? |
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Post by Dappy 2 on Jan 11, 2024 21:48:45 GMT
This was presented earlier, but is entirely naive. Relatives are not in a position to do, or threaten, anything that would provide evidence and the nature of 'moral, emotional pressure' would leave no evidence. You have also used the word coercion, which would normally mean a the twisting of an arm behind the back. This is not what is meant .Exactly . With respect, if you assert that a consequence will inevitably flow from an action and that action is already taking place in many jurisdictions all around the Western world, it’s your obligation to show some evidence that your predicted consequence has come true in significant numbers elsewhere. The fact that you are unable to show even a suggestion that it might be is rather telling. |
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Post by dappy on Jan 11, 2024 21:50:54 GMT
If there is a societal change that encourages suicide ( otherwise known as the right to die…support) then that may change how treatment of the elderly , including palliative care is viewed and applied to patients. It might mission creep into depressives and mentally ill patients too. Assisted suicide should not be something taken lightly. Once again what is the evidence that this has occurred in jurisdictions that have implemented this policy |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2024 21:53:32 GMT
With respect, if you assert that a consequence will inevitably flow from an action and that action is already taking place in many jurisdictions all around the Western world, it’s your obligation to show some evidence that your predicted consequence has come true in significant numbers elsewhere. The fact that you are unable to show even a suggestion that it might be is rather telling. What was the consequence that would inevitably happen ? |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 11, 2024 21:56:46 GMT
If there is a societal change that encourages suicide ( otherwise known as the right to die…support) then that may change how treatment of the elderly , including palliative care is viewed and applied to patients. It might mission creep into depressives and mentally ill patients too. Assisted suicide should not be something taken lightly. Once again what is the evidence that this has occurred in jurisdictions that have implemented this policy Where are the exhaustive studies with clear definitions of ‘ coercion ‘ and levels thereof ? Without those there is only opinion . |
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Post by Orac on Jan 11, 2024 21:59:14 GMT
With respect, if you assert that a consequence will inevitably flow from an action and that action is already taking place in many jurisdictions all around the Western world, it’s your obligation to show some evidence that your predicted consequence has come true in significant numbers elsewhere. The fact that you are unable to show even a suggestion that it might be is rather telling. Let's try again - Relatives are not in a position to do, or threaten, anything that would provide evidence and the nature of 'moral, emotional pressure' would leave no evidence. You have also used the word coercion, which would normally mean the twisting of an arm behind the back. This is not what is meant. |
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Post by dappy on Jan 11, 2024 22:04:04 GMT
Cutting and pasting the same evasion does not make it a less nonsensical.
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Post by Orac on Jan 11, 2024 22:13:43 GMT
Cutting and pasting the same evasion does not make it a less nonsensical. I'm attempting to corner you into dealing with the opposing point. There is no part of your position i'm evading. |
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