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Post by Orac on Jan 10, 2024 15:10:58 GMT
Is there any evidence to suggest this has been a major problem in other countries? Is there any evidence of substantial research into it in other countries ? It would be very hard to research objectively.
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Post by dappy on Jan 10, 2024 15:11:22 GMT
Is there any evidence to suggest this has been a major problem in other countries? Is there any evidence of substantial research into it in other countries ? I don't know but given some countries have had different forms of assisted dying for quite a while I imagine they would have wanted to do their best to ensure that they were not creating other problems. I am sure, humans being humans, there are isolated cases of abuse, but is there any evidence that coercion has become a major problem. It would surely be known if t had.
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Post by patman post on Jan 10, 2024 15:48:57 GMT
I am uneasy with legal euthanasia.
I prefer the idea that when a terminal patient's deteriorating condition requires increasing doses or strength of medication (administered/prescribed by a qualified medical practitioner), the prime purpose is to keep the patient comfortable, not to end their life...
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Post by Bentley on Jan 10, 2024 16:58:47 GMT
Is there any evidence of substantial research into it in other countries ? I don't know but given some countries have had different forms of assisted dying for quite a while I imagine they would have wanted to do their best to ensure that they were not creating other problems. I am sure, humans being humans, there are isolated cases of abuse, but is there any evidence that coercion has become a major problem. It would surely be known if t had. That depends on how you define both coercion and problem . Its doubtful that Aunt Maud bring encouraged to take the pill by her benefactors would either be seen as coercion or even mentioned by Aunt Maud. I think the idea that coercion would ‘ surely be known if it had’ is somewhat naive .
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Post by Bentley on Jan 10, 2024 16:59:41 GMT
Is there any evidence of substantial research into it in other countries ? It would be very hard to research objectively. Exactly. Imo it would be quite hard to define objectively.
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Post by zanygame on Jan 10, 2024 19:16:02 GMT
It is a difficult issue Zany and where to draw the line is difficult, hence I would suggest learn from other countries ahead of us in addressing this issue to ensure we avoid the law of unintended consequences. My own view I think is that at least initially, I would not wish the law to extend to your mum as you describe her situation. Must be very add for you to cope however. I hope you are OK. Even more difficult as we all had bad childhoods. My Dad was a bully and my mum in and out of mental hospital. I left home aged 17. So its difficult making myself care, but from day one of escaping my Mum and Dad I was determined not to be them. My wife gets this and steps in for my mum when I don't want to, but we do our best.
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Post by zanygame on Jan 10, 2024 19:16:57 GMT
Is there any evidence of substantial research into it in other countries ? It would be very hard to research objectively. But easy to assume there would be.
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Post by Orac on Jan 10, 2024 19:47:18 GMT
It would be very hard to research objectively. But easy to assume there would be. it's absurd to assume people will feel pressured to make a sacrifice in order to remove a burden from their family. / sarc.
This unfortunately is very typical of the frozen, one dimensional fantasy worlds your arguments often live in. The pressure is clearly even logically implicit in the legal availability of the option. That's how silly this is to deny. The question is not whether a pressure would exist, but whether changing the law would be a good moral trade-off regardless. My opinion is that it would not.
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Post by zanygame on Jan 10, 2024 20:10:10 GMT
But easy to assume there would be. it's absurd to assume people will feel pressured to make a sacrifice in order to remove a burden from their family. / sarc.
This unfortunately is very typical of the frozen, one dimensional fantasy worlds your arguments often live in. The pressure is clearly even logically implicit in the legal availability of the option. That's how silly this is to deny. The question is not whether a pressure would exist, but whether changing the law would be a good moral trade-off regardless. My opinion is that it would not. I'm sure there would, what I question is whether it would result in someone committing suicide. I think two things. 1, Very few are as generous as you imply. 2, Of those very few even fewer would have something worth taking and of those few even fewer would fall through the safety net. That's if you're referring to monetary gain. If you are referring to being a burden then it really is up to the individual if they don't want to be a burden.
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Post by seniorcitizen007 on Jan 10, 2024 22:18:47 GMT
Prior to training to be a nurse my brother worked for a short time in an isolated rural geriatric hospital. He had a room in the hospital so he spent most of his time there. After he'd been there for about three weeks one of the staff took him for a drink in the local pub ... and told him that during the ten years he'd worked there he'd killed over 400 patients. When he was on night duty if a patient began making too much noise and was disturbing the others he'd place pillows behind their head so as to restrict their breathing. His advice to my brother was "Don't forget to remove the pillows".
Until 1993 families were under no legal obligation to feed debilitated elderly relatives who were living with them.
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Post by Orac on Jan 10, 2024 22:30:29 GMT
it's absurd to assume people will feel pressured to make a sacrifice in order to remove a burden from their family. / sarc.
This unfortunately is very typical of the frozen, one dimensional fantasy worlds your arguments often live in. The pressure is clearly even logically implicit in the legal availability of the option. That's how silly this is to deny. The question is not whether a pressure would exist, but whether changing the law would be a good moral trade-off regardless. My opinion is that it would not. I'm sure there would, what I question is whether it would result in someone committing suicide. I think two things. Than you are just outright denying reality. I am prepared to discuss the pluses an minuses here - there is an argument, but i'm not discussing it within a completely idiot framework
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Post by zanygame on Jan 11, 2024 7:30:26 GMT
I'm sure there would, what I question is whether it would result in someone committing suicide. I think two things. Than you are just outright denying reality. I am prepared to discuss the pluses an minuses here - there is an argument, but i'm not discussing it within a completely idiot framework Suits me. Inventing my religious views, missing out half my post to change its meaning. Happens each time I respond to you, I never learn.
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Post by Orac on Jan 11, 2024 10:24:40 GMT
Than you are just outright denying reality. I am prepared to discuss the pluses an minuses here - there is an argument, but i'm not discussing it within a completely idiot framework Suits me. Inventing my religious views, missing out half my post to change its meaning. Happens each time I respond to you, I never learn. Please stop swinging the lead, it's embarrassing. It occurs to me that this conversation is a microcosm of many of our discussions and an illustration of why i find so many of your positions and arguments so distressing. Rather than 'man-up' and admit that there are two morality based views and choose between them, you instead try to pretend that one of the views doesn't exist and so there is only one moral view (your own). I have distinct memories of you using a 'christian charity' concept to rationalise allowing the world's poor into the UK. The memories feel reasonably clear, but memory can be mistaken and this would have been on the old forum years ago. If you say you didn't i am forced to hold my tongue for now and wait for you to do it 'again'
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Post by dappy on Jan 11, 2024 10:39:51 GMT
Of course this is a difficult moral issue with difficulties whichever way we go.
The argument you and Bentley are using is that there would undoubtedly be large scale coercion encouraging elderly people to take their lives from beneficiary greed. There seems to be no evidence whatsoever from other countries that have adopted the right to die to support the concept that this would be a serious issue. I suspect though that this is not your real objection to the concept.
There are no easy answers here. Anyone who has made the agonising decision to end the life of a much loved pet now in distress will know how difficult that is. It must be considered likely that it would be even harder to be involved in the choice of death for a much loved relative. Yet we accept for animals that sometimes their physical condition means that the life they are now living is no longer better than the alternative. It is hard to understand why, if we can show that maturity and compassion towards animals, we are unable to show similar maturity and compassion with human beings.
Yes there would need to be controls and safeguards - and in this respect rather than reinventing the wheel we would be well advised to study and learn the lessons from the experience of countries that have done this but while this is indeed a difficult moral area, the benefits of helping people in need seem to me to be overwhelming.
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Post by zanygame on Jan 11, 2024 17:25:39 GMT
Of course this is a difficult moral issue with difficulties whichever way we go. The argument you and Bentley are using is that there would undoubtedly be large scale coercion encouraging elderly people to take their lives from beneficiary greed. There seems to be no evidence whatsoever from other countries that have adopted the right to die to support the concept that this would be a serious issue. I suspect though that this is not your real objection to the concept. There are no easy answers here. Anyone who has made the agonising decision to end the life of a much loved pet now in distress will know how difficult that is. It must be considered likely that it would be even harder to be involved in the choice of death for a much loved relative. Yet we accept for animals that sometimes their physical condition means that the life they are now living is no longer better than the alternative. It is hard to understand why, if we can show that maturity and compassion towards animals, we are unable to show similar maturity and compassion with human beings. Yes there would need to be controls and safeguards - and in this respect rather than reinventing the wheel we would be well advised to study and learn the lessons from the experience of countries that have done this but while this is indeed a difficult moral area, the benefits of helping people in need seem to me to be overwhelming. Its a self regulating system to a certain extent. Much loved relative, Generous kind loving, lots of memories. I don't want them to die. They offer I refuse Unloved relative, Tight, mean unloving bad memories. I want them to die. They don't offer. My mum is worth well over a million quid (Aged 92) Still objects to giving the Grand children £150 each for Christmas. She knows she would need to live to 162 years old before she ran out of money and laughs about it.
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