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Post by Orac on Jan 10, 2024 0:14:25 GMT
I'm warning of consequences. A right to do something that may be of benefit to others can easily become an obligation under some circumstances. This also involves the co-operation of others. I thought you were in favour of freedom of choice? Liberal? Sure. I'm not a libertarian / anarchist. I Find it a bit odd that you only lean on such libertine notions when there may be large socially destructive consequences. In other circumstances you are pretty illiberal. I think old people being socially pressured into committing suicide is a pretty negative social consequence |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 10, 2024 9:39:23 GMT
I thought you were in favour of freedom of choice? Liberal? Sure. I'm not a libertarian / anarchist. I Find it a bit odd that you only lean on such libertine notions when there may be large socially destructive consequences. In other circumstances you are pretty illiberal. I think old people being socially pressured into committing suicide is a pretty negative social consequence If you assume they are socially pressured. I thought you believed people should be responsible for themselves and not rely on big government to make decisions for them. you think that family should look after their elderly rather than the state correct? |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2024 10:18:36 GMT
Can't she just bung you in a home? At £6,000 a month. Yes if you can afford it. Oh well, it looks like you'll have to live then. Life is all about suffering so at least nobody will be losing out. It's best to enjoy a bit of happiness in the eternal moment whilst you still can. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 10, 2024 10:27:29 GMT
I suspect that if old people have the option to be killed or kill themselves they will be less likely to be offered life enhancing treatment . Especially expensive treatment .
People will be complaining that old uncle Charlie had to take the kill pill because he was waiting years for a hip replacement and couldn’t bear the pain any more ( or the effects of the pain killers).
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Post by zanygame on Jan 10, 2024 10:55:03 GMT
At £6,000 a month. Yes if you can afford it. Oh well, it looks like you'll have to live then. Life is all about suffering so at least nobody will be losing out. It's best to enjoy a bit of happiness in the eternal moment whilst you still can. As I say, its about not putting my wife through this, not about me. If I become more of a jabbering idiot than I am now, then I would know about it. Did you watch the video |
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Post by Orac on Jan 10, 2024 11:18:11 GMT
Sure. I'm not a libertarian / anarchist. I Find it a bit odd that you only lean on such libertine notions when there may be large socially destructive consequences. In other circumstances you are pretty illiberal. I think old people being socially pressured into committing suicide is a pretty negative social consequence If you assume they are socially pressured. I thought you believed people should be responsible for themselves and not rely on big government to make decisions for them. you think that family should look after their elderly rather than the state correct? They will be socially pressured, it is the nature of things. I do believe in personal responsibility, but I'm not an anarcho-capitalist. For instance, I do not believe a person has the responsibility to remove themselves from the world, sell themselves into slavery or settle a debt with sex. These can be put in the category 'cultural sensitivities' if you like. There may be others. I'm now intrigued by potential discontinuities in what i see as your position - I recall being informed that you hold the position that the British should cede their territory to the world's desperate and homeless as a part of a Christian philosophical position (charity). It's also my understanding that committing suicide is considered a sin in Christianity. |
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Post by dappy on Jan 10, 2024 13:57:27 GMT
I do think we as a society have to work out how to allow people in pain suffering miserable deaths with no prospect of recovery to end their lives with dignity. The present situation where humans are kept alive while we show mercy to our animals is immoral in my view. Clearly we do need to prevent people not ready to die being coerced or bullied into doing so. As ever we don't need to reinvent the wheel. Other countries have addressed this problem. We should learn from their experience and copy the systems and safeguards judged to have worked best. Summary of other countries legislation here. www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/19/assisted-dying-around-world-where-when-allowed-esther-rantzen |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 10, 2024 14:07:57 GMT
If you assume they are socially pressured. I thought you believed people should be responsible for themselves and not rely on big government to make decisions for them. you think that family should look after their elderly rather than the state correct? I don't think a person has the responsibility to remove themselves from the world either. I put things in place to stop that happening. How about you address them before we move forward. Otherwise you are just repeating yourself. More from the people inside your head I'm afraid. I am not a Christian and do not believe in a Christian god. That we should help the desperate is a human thing to do, nought to do with any god. |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 10, 2024 14:18:54 GMT
I do think we as a society have to work out how to allow people in pain suffering miserable deaths with no prospect of recovery to end their lives with dignity. The present situation where humans are kept alive while we show mercy to our animals is immoral in my view. Clearly we do need to prevent people not ready to die being coerced or bullied into doing so. As ever we don't need to reinvent the wheel. Other countries have addressed this problem. We should learn from their experience and copy the systems and safeguards judged to have worked best. Summary of other countries legislation here. www.theguardian.com/society/2023/dec/19/assisted-dying-around-world-where-when-allowed-esther-rantzenThanks Dappy. I wonder how many claims of coercion are recorded in a country like Switzerland where there is no requirement to be in agony with an incurable disease before getting assisted suicide. Far fewer than the scaremongers would claim I suspect. Where I do worry is for people like my mum who is in a care home is perfectly fit but just wants to die. She is a diagnosed sociopath and doesn't make friends so sits alone doing jigsaws unless we kids come in to see her. Every time I visit she says she would like to wake up dead. The care home staff are lovely but she is a very difficult case for them. |
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Post by dappy on Jan 10, 2024 14:28:16 GMT
It is a difficult issue Zany and where to draw the line is difficult, hence I would suggest learn from other countries ahead of us in addressing this issue to ensure we avoid the law of unintended consequences. My own view I think is that at least initially, I would not wish the law to extend to your mum as you describe her situation. Must be very add for you to cope however. I hope you are OK.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 10, 2024 14:33:40 GMT
I suspect any recorded coercion would be out and out blatant and obvious coercion.
“ You don’t have to,put up with this Mum. There is another way “ probably wouldn’t count .
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Post by dappy on Jan 10, 2024 14:35:31 GMT
Is there any evidence to suggest this has been a major problem in other countries?
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Post by Bentley on Jan 10, 2024 14:38:45 GMT
Is there any evidence to suggest this has been a major problem in other countries? Is there any evidence of substantial research into it in other countries ? |
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Post by johnofgwent on Jan 10, 2024 14:49:52 GMT
Clearly dementia is a very difficult illness to handle, but I don't see a "right to die" as being a solution. Better care might be a solution. My father died in his eighties from bowel cancer which had spread to his liver and it wasn't discovered until it was a hopeless case. He was suffering in his last days when we flew over to say goodbye, but I wouldn't say he was in agonising pain. He was lucid, but physically weak. He was on morphine which depresses the respiration, the dose was increased by the hospital staff and he faded away in the early hours of a morning, about 15 years ago. I think the hospital staff got it right in this case. Professionals are usually in the best position to make well informed decisions without too much emotion. I think we all need to be dealt with compassionately and sensitively. In the UK there is currently no "right to die" and I don't think there should be. It is fraught with potential problems, ethical, legal and financial. We will all die eventually, sometimes we have to wait. See that’s a good differential right there Dad WAS in agonising pain At one point he sat on the sofa in the living room racked with pain for a whole day, knowing that if he could hold on until 8am he would get his hospice bed but if he called for help they would take him into velindre again and he would lose the hospice bed When the liberal democrat wanker who served as dad’s AM publicly announced to the press at 9am that monday how very glad she was that a black woman who flew in from Nigeria the week before to help herself to our palliative care was being given the very bed dad had sat with clenched teeth in agony for eight hours in hope of getting so he could go and die painlessly, well, all i can say is she’s lucky i didn’t have the access i used to have to weaponry…. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 10, 2024 15:07:37 GMT
I don't understand the logic. There is a general feeling of horror when a young person commits suicide. Why is that? If we were able to ask them in that moment no doubt they would have pretty solid reasons for their actions. Because their notions don't agree with our views doesn't really come into it. Why then do the elderly infirm etc want to have their 'right' recognised? Is it because they actually want to dump the act on someone else and therefore absolve their own guilt?
There is only one law that counts and that is God's law. Trying to get legal recognition of suicide through murder is surely just trying to hedge your bets.
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