|
|
Post by Bentley on Jan 12, 2024 23:33:27 GMT
He wants someone to kill him when he reaches an arbitrary criteria . He doesn’t know if he will want to be killed or not at that point. Wanting to die at the point that you have lost a specific mental ability is fine . Being indulged in that whim is not . I can’t understand that for you darling We don't appear to have made much progress, Bentley. If someone writes a list of random incidents that might occur later in his life, blindfolds himself, sticks a pin in the list and declares that he wants to die should the incident he stuck the pin into ever occur, then it can fairly be said that he wants to die 'when he reaches an arbitrary criteria' (sic). It is not possible to say that he is using an arbitrary criterion if that criterion was chosen after careful consideration. It's not possible to say that it is self-indulgent if it was motivated by a desire to spare somebody else the burden of his care. Once again, we appear to be separated by a common language. Your understanding of the words arbitrary and self-indulgent simply doesn't chime with the common understanding of those words. It fits fine . I’ve explained several times .As Zany nearly said I think its gone as far as it will anyway. I have no desire to read the same words from darling a third or tenth time. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Jan 13, 2024 8:22:59 GMT
And how many times do you need to be told that he wants to die precisely because he is no longer compos mentis. It is the fact that he he has arrived at a state where he is 'no longer able to tell the killer not to kill him' that prompted the decision that was made by his compos mentis self 10 years earlier. He wants someone to kill him when he reaches an arbitrary criteria . He doesn’t know if he will want to be killed or not at that point. Wanting to die at the point that you have lost a specific mental ability is fine . Being indulged in that whim is not . I can’t understand that for you darling . But one person may be happy to be in that state another not so. The best person to decide when and how they want to live or die is the person themselves. You want a nanny state one size fits all. One person with MND might want to keep living another might want to die. Who do you think should decide? At the moment no one does, if you want to die your loved ones have to risk a murder charge even to take you to Dignitas. |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Jan 13, 2024 17:14:00 GMT
He wants someone to kill him when he reaches an arbitrary criteria . He doesn’t know if he will want to be killed or not at that point. Wanting to die at the point that you have lost a specific mental ability is fine . Being indulged in that whim is not . I can’t understand that for you darling . But one person may be happy to be in that state another not so. The best person to decide when and how they want to live or die is the person themselves. You want a nanny state one size fits all. One person with MND might want to keep living another might want to die. Who do you think should decide? At the moment no one does, if you want to die your loved ones have to risk a murder charge even to take you to Dignitas. You don’t know how you will feel when you can’t remember your own wife . You have no idea if you have quality of life . What you do know is that you will be different from you are now. You also know that you will not be able to stop yourself being executed even if you are comfortable and happy. IMO this is all about grandstanding . I have no objection to someone assisted in killing themselves if they are dying and suffering pain that cannot be relieved . You are just demanding to be executed when you reach an arbitrary criteria. It’s nonsense . My advice is to stop grandstanding and if you really want to kill yourself at any point then do it . You might find that you don’t have the stomach for it though . |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Jan 13, 2024 17:34:17 GMT
But one person may be happy to be in that state another not so. The best person to decide when and how they want to live or die is the person themselves. You want a nanny state one size fits all. One person with MND might want to keep living another might want to die. Who do you think should decide? At the moment no one does, if you want to die your loved ones have to risk a murder charge even to take you to Dignitas. You don’t know how you will feel when you can’t remember your own wife . You have no idea if you have quality of life . What you do know is that you will be different from you are now. You also know that you will not be able to stop yourself being executed even if you are comfortable and happy. IMO this is all about grandstanding . I have no objection to someone assisted in killing themselves if they are dying and suffering pain that cannot be relieved . You are just demanding to be executed when you reach an arbitrary criteria. It’s nonsense . My advice is to stop grandstanding and if you really want to kill yourself at any point then do it . You might find that you don’t have the stomach for it though . I don't expect you to agree with my personal criteria, but I would expect you to allow me to decide my own criteria rather than impose yours. You might well be happy with your quality of life with thought power unable to remember even your closest companion, I would not. And there we have it, I'm in favour of each person deciding for themselves, you want to dictate terms. As for wanting to kill yourself and just doing it. 1, This shows you completely missed the point. At the state I would be in when wishing my life to end I would not be able to kill myself but would want it done for my wife's sake. 2, How do you commit suicide? Jump in front of a train and ruin some poor train drivers life? Take poison and die a dreadful painful death. Hang yourself when you can barely walk with a frame. And for you to use a word like grandstanding on such a sensitive subject is appalling even by your low standards. Shame on you. |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Jan 13, 2024 17:47:29 GMT
You don’t know how you will feel when you can’t remember your own wife . You have no idea if you have quality of life . What you do know is that you will be different from you are now. You also know that you will not be able to stop yourself being executed even if you are comfortable and happy. IMO this is all about grandstanding . I have no objection to someone assisted in killing themselves if they are dying and suffering pain that cannot be relieved . You are just demanding to be executed when you reach an arbitrary criteria. It’s nonsense . My advice is to stop grandstanding and if you really want to kill yourself at any point then do it . You might find that you don’t have the stomach for it though . I don't expect you to agree with my personal criteria, but I would expect you to allow me to decide my own criteria rather than impose yours. You might well be happy with your quality of life with thought power unable to remember even your closest companion, I would not. And there we have it, I'm in favour of each person deciding for themselves, you want to dictate terms. As for wanting to kill yourself and just doing it. 1, This shows you completely missed the point. At the state I would be in when wishing my life to end I would not be able to kill myself but would want it done for my wife's sake. 2, How do you commit suicide? Jump in front of a train and ruin some poor train drivers life? Take poison and die a dreadful painful death. Hang yourself when you can barely walk with a frame. And for you to use a word like grandstanding on such a sensitive subject is appalling even by your low standards. Shame on you. Of course it’s grandstanding. I want to be executed when I reach this criteria ( fill in blank) because I want to save my family from deciding if I have a quality of life . Its risible . |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Jan 13, 2024 17:53:42 GMT
I don't expect you to agree with my personal criteria, but I would expect you to allow me to decide my own criteria rather than impose yours. You might well be happy with your quality of life with thought power unable to remember even your closest companion, I would not. And there we have it, I'm in favour of each person deciding for themselves, you want to dictate terms. As for wanting to kill yourself and just doing it. 1, This shows you completely missed the point. At the state I would be in when wishing my life to end I would not be able to kill myself but would want it done for my wife's sake. 2, How do you commit suicide? Jump in front of a train and ruin some poor train drivers life? Take poison and die a dreadful painful death. Hang yourself when you can barely walk with a frame. And for you to use a word like grandstanding on such a sensitive subject is appalling even by your low standards. Shame on you. Of course it’s grandstanding. I want to be executed when I reach this criteria ( fill in blank) because I want to save my family from deciding if I have a quality of life . Its risible . Speaks volumes. I'll let others decide. |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Jan 13, 2024 17:58:58 GMT
Of course it’s grandstanding. I want to be executed when I reach this criteria ( fill in blank) because I want to save my family from deciding if I have a quality of life . Its risible . Speaks volumes. I'll let others decide. Yes it does speak volumes ..and not in your favour . You have unwittingly put a cast iron case for not allowing self indulgence to be part of the case for assisted suicide . |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Jan 13, 2024 18:12:15 GMT
As I say. I'll let others decide.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Jan 13, 2024 18:25:45 GMT
I’ll repeat this again because no one seems to have addressed it .
Should a physically healthy person be allowed assisted suicide on the grounds of intolerable suffering due to mental illness ?
If so, at what point should they be allowed ? Should the sufferer expect to be allowed assisted suicide on demand ?
If not why not?
|
|
|
|
Post by johnofgwent on Jan 16, 2024 19:00:39 GMT
I’ll repeat this again because no one seems to have addressed it . Should a physically healthy person be allowed assisted suicide on the grounds of intolerable suffering due to mental illness ? If so, at what point should they be allowed ? Should the sufferer expect to be allowed assisted suicide on demand ? If not why not? Ooh Good one, and i missed that in the midst of other posts. The whole idea behind this is that you take a decision when you are still legally fit to make it, to cover what is to happen when you are not. I’ve only had minimal experiences of this condition, in the immediate aftermath of my mini stroke. I had limited control of some systems and full control of others. To suffer as my mother did a failure of communication and physical ability is a scenario too horrific for me to contemplate. But your postulation is far worse. I’m not sure what medical condition you have in mind, but the problem i see is persuading the legal profession you are of sound mind in that mental state to be allowed to enjoy that level of control. I have no idea what would be the outcome. I fear you would be sentenced to life. I use that phrase advisedly from a plsy of that name covering the topic of assisted suicide following physical disease. That i saw that performed on a west end stage forty years ago at least suggests how long this wider issue has gone unresolved… |
|
|
|
Post by ratcliff on Jan 16, 2024 19:23:07 GMT
|
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Jan 16, 2024 19:34:46 GMT
I’ll repeat this again because no one seems to have addressed it . Should a physically healthy person be allowed assisted suicide on the grounds of intolerable suffering due to mental illness ? If so, at what point should they be allowed ? Should the sufferer expect to be allowed assisted suicide on demand ? If not why not? Ooh Good one, and i missed that in the midst of other posts. The whole idea behind this is that you take a decision when you are still legally fit to make it, to cover what is to happen when you are not. I’ve only had minimal experiences of this condition, in the immediate aftermath of my mini stroke. I had limited control of some systems and full control of others. To suffer as my mother did a failure of communication and physical ability is a scenario too horrific for me to contemplate. But your postulation is far worse. I’m not sure what medical condition you have in mind, but the problem i see is persuading the legal profession you are of sound mind in that mental state to be allowed to enjoy that level of control. I have no idea what would be the outcome. I fear you would be sentenced to life. I use that phrase advisedly from a plsy of that name covering the topic of assisted suicide following physical disease. That i saw that performed on a west end stage forty years ago at least suggests how long this wider issue has gone unresolved… Indeed” Whose life is it anyway ?” On stage and screen . Suicide isnt illegal. It’s not even difficult…unless you try it . Maybe we could be prescribed’ kill pills ‘ from our local pharmacy to save us from fear and pain at the point where we jump off the stool or the long slow wait of that last few milli seconds as the train closes in . All part of the process of our bodies telling us that we didnt really want to do it anyway. Whos life is it anyway ? Ask the one trying to tempt uncle Arthur with dementia that assisted suicide is for the best. I see this in much the same way as I see abortion ( who’s body us it anyway?) sometimes it’s the wise course to take a life but shouldn’t be seen as an easy way out or an easy way to check out . Every assisted suicide should be seen as a failure of some kind or another . |
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Jan 16, 2024 19:35:58 GMT
That wasn’t the question . |
|
|
|
Post by Equivocal on Jan 16, 2024 21:44:48 GMT
Zany - it is more underground than selfish children talking their parents into things. The fact that the option exists exerts a moral pressure. I'm uneasy with such dilemmas existing. The dying person is forced to choose the burden they create. I'm not sure that's moral. You have offered something here, but i'm not sure if this just changes when the pressure is exerted. It takes an awful lot of moral pressure from the authorities to make someone who doesn't want to end their life. I think it was organisations representing the disabled, elderly and terminally ill that were very much against making changes to laws related to assisted suicide precisely because of the likely societal (read moral if you prefer) pressure placed on their members by those changes.
I found the section of the debate from 2009 in the Lords, particularly Baroness Campbell's contribution, which convinced me that, on balance, the law is in about the right place as it stands. The amendment being debated at the time was to decriminalise assisting people travelling to Dignitas.
|
|
|
|
Post by Bentley on Jan 16, 2024 21:59:53 GMT
It takes an awful lot of moral pressure from the authorities to make someone who doesn't want to end their life. I think it was organisations representing the disabled, elderly and terminally ill that were very much against making changes to laws related to assisted suicide precisely because of the likely societal (read moral if you prefer) pressure placed on their members by those changes.
I found the section of the debate from 2009 in the Lords, particularly Baroness Campbell's contribution, which convinced me that, on balance, the law is in about the right place as it stands. The amendment being debated at the time was to decriminalise assisting people travelling to Dignitas.
Indeed. |
|
