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Post by Steve on Dec 2, 2022 23:29:55 GMT
I suggest you need to contemplate the BIG difference between 'determine' and 'can be one of many factors that influence' Agree entirely. Maybe I wasn't following closely enough. Ta You looked to be getting close to getting trapped into supporting the 'if one non white man is a criminal then all non white men are latent criminals because it's in the genes' line of bigotry some here have.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 3, 2022 7:16:08 GMT
The Viking aggression was clearly nurture. For when raiding stopped being profitable they quickly settled Northumberland and East Anglia. No I was referring specifically to Berserker families that Viking leaders favoured in their group. It was trait that helped people fight like demented animals (going berserk) at sometimes critical points in battle. These traits could be aided by nurture and drugs but selecting families or kin of past berserk warriors also aided ensuring berserk warriors existed in one's battle group. The Berserkers used drugs to create their euphoric and invincible state of mind. This was a cultural thing not a genetic one.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 3, 2022 7:37:31 GMT
The racists were steering towards the idea that races are genetically different. Different enough to not be suitable to share a country. I'll let you decide whether that includes you. That seems like a large stretch as regards assessing the direction of a discussion. I will make it easy, behaviour within in any group is in part determined by the genes of the individuals within that group. A preponderance to certain actions will be tempered or enhanced by nurture. Any group, and I mean any group, will include those who behave selflessly and those who behave selfishly and in part that is a genetic trait (Dawkins actually argues that selflessness could be the act of a selfish trait). One other aspect is that calculation on closeness of relatives are made by individuals in all groups and how much aid to give to another will depend on risk and benefit to genes. That calculation is an instinctive act built in by genes. EDIT.. As regards your last point I know where I stand and I am not the one advocating any racially discriminatory act at all. I can see who do though. Study after study has shown that life experience dwarfs genetic determination. Even more so if you look at mass population over individuals. Further still epi genetics has shown that the genes that control our behaviour also adapt to our environment within our own lives rather than just passing on fixed traits and relying on Darwins natural selection. I.E the gene that encourages fast twitch muscle fibres (needed for sprinting) will switch to encouraging slow twitch muscle growth (Used for travelling long distances) within a living creature if outside factors change the need.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 3, 2022 16:19:22 GMT
No I was referring specifically to Berserker families that Viking leaders favoured in their group. It was trait that helped people fight like demented animals (going berserk) at sometimes critical points in battle. These traits could be aided by nurture and drugs but selecting families or kin of past berserk warriors also aided ensuring berserk warriors existed in one's battle group. The Berserkers used drugs to create their euphoric and invincible state of mind. This was a cultural thing not a genetic one. Not wholly as it tended to run in families and leaders selected families as a general rule.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 3, 2022 16:27:09 GMT
That seems like a large stretch as regards assessing the direction of a discussion. I will make it easy, behaviour within in any group is in part determined by the genes of the individuals within that group. A preponderance to certain actions will be tempered or enhanced by nurture. Any group, and I mean any group, will include those who behave selflessly and those who behave selfishly and in part that is a genetic trait (Dawkins actually argues that selflessness could be the act of a selfish trait). One other aspect is that calculation on closeness of relatives are made by individuals in all groups and how much aid to give to another will depend on risk and benefit to genes. That calculation is an instinctive act built in by genes. EDIT.. As regards your last point I know where I stand and I am not the one advocating any racially discriminatory act at all. I can see who do though. Study after study has shown that life experience dwarfs genetic determination. Even more so if you look at mass population over individuals. Further still epi genetics has shown that the genes that control our behaviour also adapt to our environment within our own lives rather than just passing on fixed traits and relying on Darwins natural selection. I.E the gene that encourages fast twitch muscle fibres (needed for sprinting) will switch to encouraging slow twitch muscle growth (Used for travelling long distances) within a living creature if outside factors change the need. I do not think 'dwarfs' is the correct word. It is unproven to what level. The study of twins, separated at birth has shown personality is very much to the fore in the genetic make up. yourbrain.health/nature-vs-nurture/#:~:text=Twin%20studies%20are%20common%20in%20nature%20vs%20nurture,evaluate%20characteristics%20in%20both%20like%20and%20alternate%20environments. "The family does have a part in displayed personality traits, but we now recognize some personality traits are the outcome of genetics. Variances are due to differences in brain chemistry. That is not to discount the environment." I agree that a level of life adaptation must exist to account for the necessity to meet specific environmental needs. Also the ability to determine the genetic closeness of individuals seems to be inbuilt and what is effectively a complicated calculation is just basic nature.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 3, 2022 16:46:47 GMT
The Berserkers used drugs to create their euphoric and invincible state of mind. This was a cultural thing not a genetic one. Not wholly as it tended to run in families and leaders selected families as a general rule. You have no evidence of that as there can be none. The reason it ran in families was that fathers would expect their boys to follow family traditions. Indeed berserkers were more than a genetic group, they were a tribe with customs and expectations and reputations. Interesting aside, After the brits started forming the trained defenders the berserkers became pretty useless. They would throw themselves at the shield wall and generally get slaughtered in the first wave of battle.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 3, 2022 17:02:58 GMT
Study after study has shown that life experience dwarfs genetic determination. Even more so if you look at mass population over individuals. Further still epi genetics has shown that the genes that control our behaviour also adapt to our environment within our own lives rather than just passing on fixed traits and relying on Darwins natural selection. I.E the gene that encourages fast twitch muscle fibres (needed for sprinting) will switch to encouraging slow twitch muscle growth (Used for travelling long distances) within a living creature if outside factors change the need. I do think 'dwarfs' is the correct word. It is unproven to what level. The study of twins, separated at birth has shown personality is very much to the fore in the genetic make up. yourbrain.health/nature-vs-nurture/#:~:text=Twin%20studies%20are%20common%20in%20nature%20vs%20nurture,evaluate%20characteristics%20in%20both%20like%20and%20alternate%20environments. "The family does have a part in displayed personality traits, but we now recognize some personality traits are the outcome of genetics. Variances are due to differences in brain chemistry. That is not to discount the environment." I agree that a level of life adaptation must exist to account for the necessity to meet specific environmental needs. Also the ability to determine the genetic closeness of individuals seems to be inbuilt and what is effectively a complicated calculation is just basic nature. Personal traits, confidence, intelligence tend to be genetic, but how these manifest is down to nurture and life experience. Further there is no guarantee that if you are born confident each of your children will also be confident. The gene pool is far too large for any such predictions. So while you might rightly claim genes effect personality you are wrong in thinking they are directly familiar.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 3, 2022 18:40:22 GMT
I do think 'dwarfs' is the correct word. It is unproven to what level. The study of twins, separated at birth has shown personality is very much to the fore in the genetic make up. yourbrain.health/nature-vs-nurture/#:~:text=Twin%20studies%20are%20common%20in%20nature%20vs%20nurture,evaluate%20characteristics%20in%20both%20like%20and%20alternate%20environments. "The family does have a part in displayed personality traits, but we now recognize some personality traits are the outcome of genetics. Variances are due to differences in brain chemistry. That is not to discount the environment." I agree that a level of life adaptation must exist to account for the necessity to meet specific environmental needs. Also the ability to determine the genetic closeness of individuals seems to be inbuilt and what is effectively a complicated calculation is just basic nature. Personal traits, confidence, intelligence tend to be genetic, but how these manifest is down to nurture and life experience. Further there is no guarantee that if you are born confident each of your children will also be confident. The gene pool is far too large for any such predictions. So while you might rightly claim genes effect personality you are wrong in thinking they are directly familiar. That is what I am saying is that personality is much decided by genes and nurture is what can modify it or if you like use what is there as the base character The case of twins separated at birth tends to indicate this is the case as some with two completely different situations of nurture ended up both depressive or both happy and carefree. This is most noted in identical twins where the genes are identical. I am not predicting what people will be like I am saying genes are the base character settings but goodness knows what those genes will be although 50% of what you are will be from each parent.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 3, 2022 19:41:44 GMT
Personal traits, confidence, intelligence tend to be genetic, but how these manifest is down to nurture and life experience. Further there is no guarantee that if you are born confident each of your children will also be confident. The gene pool is far too large for any such predictions. So while you might rightly claim genes effect personality you are wrong in thinking they are directly familiar. That is what I am saying is that personality is much decided by genes and nurture is what can modify it or if you like use what is there as the base character The case of twins separated at birth tends to indicate this is the case as some with two completely different situations of nurture ended up both depressive or both happy and carefree. This is most noted in identical twins where the genes are identical. I am not predicting what people will be like I am saying genes are the base character settings but goodness knows what those genes will be although 50% of what you are will be from each parent. Identical twins is a terrible test because it assumes parental, tribal or even national genes are a narrow band found in identical twins. The variety of genes each parent can pass onto a child is enormous, far to large to try and claim characteristics for a family group, let alone a race. Particularly those than influence emotions (Anger, greed, selfishness, empathy etc) because these are effected by epi genes that adjust to nurture. Starve a child (any child) and epi genes will turn on a response that creates what we would view as greed. Beat a child and you will get gene responses of either aggression or timidity. We are only just beginning to understand the nuances of this.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 3, 2022 21:29:04 GMT
That is what I am saying is that personality is much decided by genes and nurture is what can modify it or if you like use what is there as the base character The case of twins separated at birth tends to indicate this is the case as some with two completely different situations of nurture ended up both depressive or both happy and carefree. This is most noted in identical twins where the genes are identical. I am not predicting what people will be like I am saying genes are the base character settings but goodness knows what those genes will be although 50% of what you are will be from each parent. Identical twins is a terrible test because it assumes parental, tribal or even national genes are a narrow band found in identical twins. The variety of genes each parent can pass onto a child is enormous, far to large to try and claim characteristics for a family group, let alone a race. Particularly those than influence emotions (Anger, greed, selfishness, empathy etc) because these are effected by epi genes that adjust to nurture. Starve a child (any child) and epi genes will turn on a response that creates what we would view as greed. Beat a child and you will get gene responses of either aggression or timidity. We are only just beginning to understand the nuances of this. You are getting carried away with where you believe I am going because you cannot see past race. The point about identical twins separated at birth is that with totally different environments of nurture they should turn out differently. But they do not. Quite frequently they even dress the same despite not being aware of the other. Identical of course means they have all the same genes and that seems to be the guiding lights as regards their character and behaviour and often nurture has had little effect. That proves nothing in terms of families, or races, it just shows the power of genes.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 3, 2022 22:09:30 GMT
Identical twins is a terrible test because it assumes parental, tribal or even national genes are a narrow band found in identical twins. The variety of genes each parent can pass onto a child is enormous, far to large to try and claim characteristics for a family group, let alone a race. Particularly those than influence emotions (Anger, greed, selfishness, empathy etc) because these are effected by epi genes that adjust to nurture. Starve a child (any child) and epi genes will turn on a response that creates what we would view as greed. Beat a child and you will get gene responses of either aggression or timidity. We are only just beginning to understand the nuances of this. You are getting carried away with where you believe I am going because you cannot see past race. The point about identical twins separated at birth is that with totally different environments of nurture they should turn out differently. But they do not. Quite frequently they even dress the same despite not being aware of the other. Identical of course means they have all the same genes and that seems to be the guiding lights as regards their character and behaviour and often nurture has had little effect. That proves nothing in terms of families, or races, it just shows the power of genes. My best mate is an identical twin. I have known them both for 33 years and they are completely different. They look the same but one is a very intelligent successful property developer the other a football loving average intelligence builder. Can't speak for your experimental twins but they are not atypical.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 4, 2022 9:08:03 GMT
You are getting carried away with where you believe I am going because you cannot see past race. The point about identical twins separated at birth is that with totally different environments of nurture they should turn out differently. But they do not. Quite frequently they even dress the same despite not being aware of the other. Identical of course means they have all the same genes and that seems to be the guiding lights as regards their character and behaviour and often nurture has had little effect. That proves nothing in terms of families, or races, it just shows the power of genes. My best mate is an identical twin. I have known them both for 33 years and they are completely different. They look the same but one is a very intelligent successful property developer the other a football loving average intelligence builder. Can't speak for your experimental twins but they are not atypical. Well you know one pair of identical twins upon which you base your view on identical twins and pooh pooh years of research into separated identical twins adding up to dozens of examples. If I was mugged ten years ago by a black man should I judge all black men by that one example I know, or should I bow down to the wider experience of all. Your decision.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 4, 2022 9:25:19 GMT
My best mate is an identical twin. I have known them both for 33 years and they are completely different. They look the same but one is a very intelligent successful property developer the other a football loving average intelligence builder. Can't speak for your experimental twins but they are not atypical. Well you know one pair of identical twins upon which you base your view on identical twins and pooh pooh years of research into separated identical twins adding up to dozens of examples. If I was mugged ten years ago by a black man should I judge all black men by that one example I know, or should I bow down to the wider experience of all. Your decision. I'm not pooh poohing the research if its looking at the characteristics of identical twins. I am questioning the assumptions made about this one set of identical twins separated at birth who happen to share traits, meaning that this is the norm. Most scientific opinion is that they develop substantially different personalities.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 4, 2022 9:33:39 GMT
Well you know one pair of identical twins upon which you base your view on identical twins and pooh pooh years of research into separated identical twins adding up to dozens of examples. If I was mugged ten years ago by a black man should I judge all black men by that one example I know, or should I bow down to the wider experience of all. Your decision. I'm not pooh poohing the research if its looking at the characteristics of identical twins. I am questioning the assumptions made about this one set of identical twins separated at birth who happen to share traits, meaning that this is the norm. Most scientific opinion is that they develop substantially different personalities. Not quite so. learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/twins/What I am saying is that genes are decisive in creating character in the original person at birth and it is nurture that modifies this as well as the switching on and off of some genes.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 4, 2022 10:11:26 GMT
I'm not pooh poohing the research if its looking at the characteristics of identical twins. I am questioning the assumptions made about this one set of identical twins separated at birth who happen to share traits, meaning that this is the norm. Most scientific opinion is that they develop substantially different personalities. Not quite so. learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/twins/What I am saying is that genes are decisive in creating character in the original person at birth and it is nurture that modifies this as well as the switching on and off of some genes. I'm not arguing against that. My argument is that you cannot predetermine a persons character by examining their genes. Therefore you cannot say this Tribe will have this personality type.
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