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Post by Bentley on Dec 31, 2023 19:18:20 GMT
I’m sure they had some good arguments. Problem is that they were seen as a one dimensional party defined by football hooligan loser supporters . Certainly not Tolkien fans . As an aside , for what I remember of The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy , they can be seen through a woke lens just as much as a racist one. I read them in my teens though . I'd say that depends on whether you refer to the original books or the later Hollywood renditions, especially the Amazon version of the Silmarillion.
I don't think you can say the books are particularly woke and, as far as the above citation about Tolkien's disavowal of any völkisch tendencies it would be interesting to learn when he said that and to whom. It seems unnecessarily defensive to me and certainly not something he would have said prior to WWII and the subsequent revelations of Nazi atrocities in Eastern Europe.
I read the books quite a few years ago . I refer to the Hobbit and LOTR. The books aren’t particularly right wing . Toxic white men , diversity, multicultural, sentient Trees, Strong and independent women , Patriarchal society . Woke lefties could see it through a woke lens just as much as right wingers can see it through a race lens . Tbh you could see any book through any lens if you really tried hard. |
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Post by wapentake on Dec 31, 2023 19:23:50 GMT
I’m sure they had some good arguments. Problem is that they were seen as a one dimensional party defined by football hooligan loser supporters . Certainly not Tolkien fans . As an aside , for what I remember of The Hobbit and the LOTR trilogy , they can be seen through a woke lens just as much as a racist one. I read them in my teens though . I'd say that depends on whether you refer to the original books or the later Hollywood renditions, especially the Amazon version of the Silmarillion.
I don't think you can say the books are particularly woke and, as far as the above citation about Tolkien's disavowal of any völkisch tendencies it would be interesting to learn when he said that and to whom. It seems unnecessarily defensive to me and certainly not something he would have said prior to WWII and the subsequent revelations of Nazi atrocities in Eastern Europe
This should answer you question |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 31, 2023 21:45:28 GMT
It would be helpful to see the actual source.
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Post by wapentake on Dec 31, 2023 22:39:36 GMT
It would be helpful to see the actual source. Well I didn’t make it up Dan. There are multiple references out there all say pretty much the same that Tolkien despised the Nazis and Hitler especially,this was before the war started and before the horrors of the holocaust came to light. Here is one of many sources. www.good.is/Culture/jrr-rolkien-nazi-letter |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jan 1, 2024 9:40:51 GMT
Give me a source which doesn't demand I turn off the ad-blocker.
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Post by wapentake on Jan 1, 2024 10:38:22 GMT
Give me a source which doesn't demand I turn off the ad-blocker. If you were more pleasant and less demanding and devoid of any manners I might help,as it is find yourself another servant and go look yourself if you doubt the veracity of what’s posted as I already told you. There are plenty of sources all say the same which disprove your contentions. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2024 10:55:21 GMT
Give me a source which doesn't demand I turn off the ad-blocker. If you were more pleasant and less demanding and devoid of any manners I might help,as it is find yourself another servant and go look yourself if you doubt the veracity of what’s posted as I already told you. There are plenty of sources all say the same which disprove your contentions. You claim there are many sources so why did you choose a strictly left-wing source? I'm on the fence but also highly sceptical of the domain you have chosen. This is not to say I am agreeing or disagreeing with your findings, only that the Left do have a reputation for trying to rewrite history, especially in the entertainment industry, which is something I have some experience with. |
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Post by wapentake on Jan 1, 2024 11:05:22 GMT
If you were more pleasant and less demanding and devoid of any manners I might help,as it is find yourself another servant and go look yourself if you doubt the veracity of what’s posted as I already told you. There are plenty of sources all say the same which disprove your contentions. You claim there are many sources so why did you choose a strictly left-wing source? I'm on the fence but also highly sceptical of the domain you have chosen. This is not to say I am agreeing or disagreeing with your findings, only that the Left do have a reputation for trying to rewrite history, especially in the entertainment industry, which is something I have some experience with. Because on a search that was the first that came up if you doubt there are other sources you can do a search yourself some even show a copy of the letter,he asked for a link got one and so if Dan disputes that he or anyone else can do a search and produce evidence to the contrary,. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 1, 2024 11:10:23 GMT
LOTR narrative has taken on a life of its own . It doesn’t matter what Tolkien thought . People will interpret the books by what they see in front of them .
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2024 11:12:11 GMT
You claim there are many sources so why did you choose a strictly left-wing source? I'm on the fence but also highly sceptical of the domain you have chosen. This is not to say I am agreeing or disagreeing with your findings, only that the Left do have a reputation for trying to rewrite history, especially in the entertainment industry, which is something I have some experience with. Because on a search that was the first that came up if you doubt there are other sources you can do a search yourself some even show a copy of the letter,he asked for a link got one and so if Dan disputes that he or anyone else can do a search and produce evidence to the contrary,. But you said that was one of many, almost like you were claiming it was the gospel. |
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Post by wapentake on Jan 1, 2024 11:28:08 GMT
Because on a search that was the first that came up if you doubt there are other sources you can do a search yourself some even show a copy of the letter,he asked for a link got one and so if Dan disputes that he or anyone else can do a search and produce evidence to the contrary,. But you said that was one of many, almost like you were claiming it was the gospel. I’m not claiming anything other than what he wrote which is there to be seen by anyone that cares to look and in his own words makes it clear he’s not complying with the Nazi demands. |
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Post by Deleted on Jan 1, 2024 11:32:29 GMT
But you said that was one of many, almost like you were claiming it was the gospel. I’m not claiming anything other than what he wrote which is there to be seen by anyone that cares to look and in his own words makes it clear he’s not complying with the Nazi demands. You did claim that it was one of many sources. Also, you do understand that Fascism and Nazism aren't the same thing, just as Fascism and Racialism isn't the same thing, right?
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Post by wapentake on Jan 1, 2024 11:42:53 GMT
I’m not claiming anything other than what he wrote which is there to be seen by anyone that cares to look and in his own words makes it clear he’s not complying with the Nazi demands. You did claim that it was one of many sources.
Yes and it is,have you looked? Do you understand that the letter was in reply to demands made by Nazi Germany? |
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Post by Dan Dare on Jan 1, 2024 11:46:13 GMT
The thread seems to have moved away from the original point, that Tolkien along with a number of other mainstream authors is considered by the governments own counter-terrorism experts as providing 'key texts' for would-be far-right extremists and white supremacists. I linked earlier to the independent review of Prevent which points out very forcefully that the government's threshold for considering a source as 'Extreme Right-Wing' is much lower than that for Islamist Terrorism. Extract follows:
"...Prevent must be consistent in the thresholds that it applies across ideologies to ensure a proportionate and effective response.
3.45 My examination of the analysis products produced by Prevent’s Research Information and Communications Unit (RICU) over the past four years has shown this not to be the case.
3.46 While the products related to Islamist terrorism focus on the most serious material relating to violent Islamist ideology, mostly Islamic State and al-Qa’ida, much of the material covering Extreme Right-Wing falls well below the threshold for even non-violent extremism.
3.47 This material tends to deal with broader themes and often covers content that relates to narratives on social media. These products not only covered non-violent far right extremism, but also examples of centre-right debate, populism, and controversial or distasteful forms of right-leaning commentary and intolerance. Some of this material falls well short of the extremism threshold altogether."
This is really the point of this discussion, not on what Tolkien had for breakfast in October 1938.
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Post by wapentake on Jan 1, 2024 11:54:10 GMT
The thread seems to have moved away from the original point, that Tolkien along with a number of other mainstream authors is considered by the governments own counter-terrorism experts as providing 'key texts' for would-be far-right extremists and white supremacists. I linked earlier to the independent review of Prevent which points out very forcefully that the government's threshold for considering a source as 'Extreme Right-Wing' is much lower than that for Islamist Terrorism. Extract follows:
"...Prevent must be consistent in the thresholds that it applies across ideologies to ensure a proportionate and effective response.
3.45 My examination of the analysis products produced by Prevent’s Research Information and Communications Unit (RICU) over the past four years has shown this not to be the case.
3.46 While the products related to Islamist terrorism focus on the most serious material relating to violent Islamist ideology, mostly Islamic State and al-Qa’ida, much of the material covering Extreme Right-Wing falls well below the threshold for even non-violent extremism.
3.47 This material tends to deal with broader themes and often covers content that relates to narratives on social media. These products not only covered non-violent far right extremism, but also examples of centre-right debate, populism, and controversial or distasteful forms of right-leaning commentary and intolerance. Some of this material falls well short of the extremism threshold altogether."
This is really the point of this discussion, not on what Tolkien had for breakfast in October 1938.
Ha priceless as you attempt to move the goalposts,you took it in this direction when you posted this earlier |
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