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Post by Pacifico on Dec 30, 2023 22:21:48 GMT
I think many Labour and Tory voters will vote Reform. The establishment don't want to acknowledge the fact that immigration illegal or otherwise is a big issue. I don't think that is right. The Tory party are the current establishment and they are desperate to make the next election all about immigration. Hence all the fuss about an insignificant amount of asylum seekers arriving by small boats and the equally insignificant numbers they are trying to send to Rwanda. This is because the public have lost faith in the Tories ability to run the economy, usually a Tory strong point. This gives Labour the upper hand over the economy and the mismanagement of the NHS to campaign on. Those are the battle lines. Reform, of course, will just split the vote on the right. The Labour voters who defected to Boris on the single issue of Brexit have been failed by ''levelling up'' and will return to Labour.
But they defected to Boris because of the promises of what Brexit would bring - among the main promises was less immigration. Even Labour have spotted this and are now saying that immigration is too high - whether anyone will be daft enough to imagine that they will do anything about it is another matter. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 30, 2023 22:27:26 GMT
I don't think that is right. The Tory party are the current establishment and they are desperate to make the next election all about immigration. Hence all the fuss about an insignificant amount of asylum seekers arriving by small boats and the equally insignificant numbers they are trying to send to Rwanda. This is because the public have lost faith in the Tories ability to run the economy, usually a Tory strong point. This gives Labour the upper hand over the economy and the mismanagement of the NHS to campaign on. Those are the battle lines. Reform, of course, will just split the vote on the right. The Labour voters who defected to Boris on the single issue of Brexit have been failed by ''levelling up'' and will return to Labour. The 'establishment' is not the government. The establishment refers to the political elite. From King Charles to president Blair, civil servants, the Home Office, Charities, College of Policing, Quangos, universities and the BBC, the 'establishment' is left wing, and the establishment do not want immigrants or immigration on any agenda. The establishment do not want immigration talked about. Politicians, especially Labour politicians will, like you, say immigration is not an issue and insist anyone who talks about immigration is a far right extremist and should be ignored. It's how the establishment regarded UKIP a decade ago. This time it's Reform UK, but the result will be the same because regardless of the left wing establishment, people are sick of mass immigration. You are posting nonsense Red, many people from all walks of life and from different political position are concerned about the Asylum/Economic migrants, the problem is how best to deal with it. Righties it would seem would say 'fuck the law' and would no doubt Jack Boot them out. Which might be a nice thought for some, but they would soon find that the Jack Boot will be used in ways they disagree with, but by that time it will be too late to do anything about it. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 30, 2023 22:30:42 GMT
I don't think that is right. The Tory party are the current establishment and they are desperate to make the next election all about immigration. Hence all the fuss about an insignificant amount of asylum seekers arriving by small boats and the equally insignificant numbers they are trying to send to Rwanda. This is because the public have lost faith in the Tories ability to run the economy, usually a Tory strong point. This gives Labour the upper hand over the economy and the mismanagement of the NHS to campaign on. Those are the battle lines. Reform, of course, will just split the vote on the right. The Labour voters who defected to Boris on the single issue of Brexit have been failed by ''levelling up'' and will return to Labour.
But they defected to Boris because of the promises of what Brexit would bring - among the main promises was less immigration. Even Labour have spotted this and are now saying that immigration is too high - whether anyone will be daft enough to imagine that they will do anything about it is another matter. Thanks. -- I suggest you put your crystal ball away. Today is very different to 2004. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 30, 2023 22:33:27 GMT
But they defected to Boris because of the promises of what Brexit would bring - among the main promises was less immigration. Even Labour have spotted this and are now saying that immigration is too high - whether anyone will be daft enough to imagine that they will do anything about it is another matter. Thanks. -- I suggest you put your crystal ball away. Today is very different to 2004. Thanks for proving my point.. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Dec 30, 2023 22:34:10 GMT
If anything could be done about it (while still filling the vacant jobs) don't you think the Tories would have done it by now?
We've had a string of Home Sec's who have all tried and failed.
The EU used to supply the labour for jobs like agriculture, the care industry and hospitality. Now it's people from outside the EU on govt issued work visas doing the work.
20k boat people is a drop in the Channel compared to the 700k+ who are legal immigrants.
Vet them, give them asylum and get them working and then they can pay for their own accommodation and contribute to society.
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Post by see2 on Dec 30, 2023 22:36:21 GMT
Thanks. -- I suggest you put your crystal ball away. Today is very different to 2004. Thanks for proving my point.. Different times require different actions. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 30, 2023 22:37:03 GMT
The 'establishment' is not the government. The establishment refers to the political elite. From King Charles to president Blair, civil servants, the Home Office, Charities, College of Policing, Quangos, universities and the BBC, the 'establishment' is left wing, and the establishment do not want immigrants or immigration on any agenda. The establishment do not want immigration talked about. Politicians, especially Labour politicians will, like you, say immigration is not an issue and insist anyone who talks about immigration is a far right extremist and should be ignored. It's how the establishment regarded UKIP a decade ago. This time it's Reform UK, but the result will be the same because regardless of the left wing establishment, people are sick of mass immigration. You are posting nonsense Red, many people from all walks of life and from different political position are concerned about the Asylum/Economic migrants, the problem is how best to deal with it. Righties it would seem would say 'fuck the law' and would no doubt Jack Boot them out. Which might be a nice thought for some, but they would soon find that the Jack Boot will be used in ways they disagree with, but by that time it will be too late to do anything about it. You claim "I'm posting nonsense" LOL, how very dare you. I post common bloody sense which is why lefties don't understand it. I'm not getting into a semantic argument about immigration, it's all been said. Suffice to say immigration illegal or otherwise will ensure the success of Reform UK. People laughed at UKIP, and as Farage famously said, 'they aint laughing now'. I imagine a pro immigrant, pro EU, Labour government in a few months time will be a massive boost for Reform UK. |
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Post by wapentake on Dec 30, 2023 22:41:12 GMT
Well tbh as has already been said younger people need educating,but then I am biased since I detest him,interestingly whilst on the subject of Blair papers released show how him and his personal Goebbels in the shape of Campbell tried to bully and threaten the BBC which perhaps displays the idea that the beeb are left and biased isn’t correct as in this case they were doing what they should and holding the executive to account. A few links,the first wont please see2 I suspect but they are well worth a read. link
link
The second link above shows Campbell in his true light,and in fact in a fairly recent QT he threatened a journo with legal action. Blairs private Secretary warned him perhaps the younger generation should be made aware…..if only. There was I believe two actions taken by Blair that were not UN led, but were covered by Later changes that followed the intervention by Blair and others against the mas murder and rape by the Serbs. (I can come back to that if your wish.) As for the two non-UN actions taken in Iraq, while a state of war still existed were: 1. The No Fly zones imposed on the Iraqi Air Force in reply to. --- A] Iraqi bombing a long line of Kurdish refugees who were fleeing Iraqi persecution. --- B] The continued bombing of Kuwait despite having just had their invasion repulsed. 2. In the run up to the bombing in 1997/98 the UN had issued one of many Resolutions demanding access for inspectors and no more 'cat and mouse' games. The resolution. Demanding entrance to areas for the UN Inspectors. (Back soon with Un Res.) "1060 12 June 1996 Unanimous Demands Iraq allow access to sites, weapons, transport and equipment by United Nations Special Commission weapons inspectors." This was 5years after the Ceasefire agreement that required free access for Inspectors was signed by Saddam. The areas that were bombed were some of the areas where Saddam had blocked the inspectors. The HUGE lie in the link is that it was a first step step into an illegal invasion of Iraq. So very clearly not a reliably objective source of information.
As the link to Alistair Campbell led to nothing I'm not sure why you posted it. Ha as expected anything you don’t agree with is a lie and imagining posting in bigger letters than usual proves your case. This shows Blair for what he is and was. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 30, 2023 22:41:51 GMT
If anything could be done about it (while still filling the vacant jobs) don't you think the Tories would have done it by now? We've had a string of Home Sec's who have all tried and failed. The EU used to supply the labour for jobs like agriculture, the care industry and hospitality. Now it's people from outside the EU on govt issued work visas doing the work. 20k boat people is a drop in the Channel compared to the 700k+ who are legal immigrants. Vet them, give them asylum and get them working and then they can pay for their own accommodation and contribute to society. Downplay immigration all you want - you are going to be dissapointed. Your lot also down played the opposition to the EU..and then the people got a say.. |
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Post by sheepy on Dec 30, 2023 22:56:58 GMT
You do know of course there has ever only been a few Tory members, they have to rely on getting people to believe them and after the Brexit debacle, the covid mess and warmongering in Ukraine, they might be struggling somewhat. Farage never pretended he was a mainstream politician when he was very popular and Reform UK are not exactly convincing either, they are like the Lib Dems no real clue.
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Post by andrewbrown on Dec 30, 2023 23:02:39 GMT
You do know of course there has ever only been a few Tory members, they have to rely on getting people to believe them and after the Brexit debacle, the covid mess and warmongering in Ukraine, they might be struggling somewhat. Farage never pretended he was a mainstream politician when he was very popular and Reform UK are not exactly convincing either, they are like the Lib Dems no real clue. Even if both the LibDems and Reform got 10-11% of the votes, that would give LibDems around 40 seats and Reform 0. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 30, 2023 23:04:33 GMT
You do know of course there has ever only been a few Tory members, they have to rely on getting people to believe them and after the Brexit debacle, the covid mess and warmongering in Ukraine, they might be struggling somewhat. Farage never pretended he was a mainstream politician when he was very popular and Reform UK are not exactly convincing either, they are like the Lib Dems no real clue. Even if both the LibDems and Reform got 10-11% of the votes, that would give LibDems around 40 seats and Reform 0. UKIP won 1 seat and achieved 100% of their aims... |
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Post by andrewbrown on Dec 30, 2023 23:07:50 GMT
What is the aim of Reform?
Edit: Richard Tice said he wanted it to destroy the Tories. Do you think they can do that?
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Post by sheepy on Dec 30, 2023 23:11:52 GMT
What is the aim of Reform? Edit: Richard Tice said he wanted it to destroy the Tories. Do you think they can do that? That will be him Dominic Cummins and about 18 million others, |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 30, 2023 23:13:11 GMT
What is the aim of Reform? Edit: Richard Tice said he wanted it to destroy the Tories. Do you think they can do that? Yep - he is going to do what UKIP did in 2014. The Tories defeat then led to Brexit. |
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