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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 24, 2024 18:32:53 GMT
I think all these 'sources' have already been cited at one time or another by one or another of the anti-heat pump Crusaders here. The common theme appears to be that a majority of the housing stock in the UK is unsuited for heat pumps because they are poorly insulated or of otherwise inferior construction, which is really the kernel of the problem rather than any inherent defect of heat pumps themselves. The UK's housing stock is certainly old, 21% of homes in the UK were built before WW1, 38% before WW2, and only 7% after 2000. Tbh, I would have thought this was an indication of good construction rather than inferior construction, indeed it's often said the Victorians over engineered everything, however. Since so many homes in the UK are clearly unsuitable for expensive heat pumps people should not be pressured into replacing reliable and efficient gas boilers in order to make politicians look virtuous on a global stage. And as far as the UK is concerned, that's what net zero is all about. |
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Post by zanygame on Jan 24, 2024 18:49:53 GMT
Outstanding news! - as heat pumps are so much better than gas boilers we can now scrap all subsidies of them and allow them to thrive in the market.  Yep. I took no grant for mine. But then I was due to change my boiler. The grant are to encourage early changes. Got rid of all my ugly radiators taking up a wall in every room, no more hot and cold rooms, no more pipes around skirting boards. But old farts don't like change so miss out. |
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Post by Pacifico on Jan 24, 2024 18:52:37 GMT
I have absolutely no objection to anyone spending their own money on them - it is a free country. I do object to my taxes being used to subsidise them and freedom of choice being removed.
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jan 24, 2024 19:02:27 GMT
I was watching this programme earlier called The Fully Charged Show and was rather pissed off with them in that they were essentially lying and over-selling them. This is why the public never trusts these bastards. If they told the truth no one would buy a duff heat pump and everyone who bought one would have made the right choice. It's when you pay 12 grand and it fucks up and then you start talking to others which is their downfall. Brexit was another example of this. It was a reasonable thing to do, but anyone in the know, knew it would never be an instant fix to our immigration and economy. Now they don't trust anything they say. I agree with the first part . Not sure how Brexit can be compared though . Heat pumps work in highly insulated houses that are condensation free. So I suppose Brexit would have worked if the UK was highly insulated and condensation free. Brexit and the collapse of the Red Wall vote for the Tories is related. They went on for ages about that £350m, and since then immigration has increased. They just fucked them over, but Brexit itself was needed as a means to achieving the advertised goals, but they never told them well actually we are not going to have a bonfire of regs, but keep them as is.
The thing is, however smug you are as a politician and think you have tricked the electorate nicely, eventually the truth comes out. Once an information source is perceived to be dishonest the average person dumps all the information from that source, e.g. News of the World could never continue after what happened. You end up blowing it completely. Yet another example is the EV car. For some people they are excellent and well appreciated, but it all depends on your personal circumstances. Any businessman should know it is a false economy to shit your customers. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 24, 2024 19:16:25 GMT
I agree with the first part . Not sure how Brexit can be compared though . Heat pumps work in highly insulated houses that are condensation free. So I suppose Brexit would have worked if the UK was highly insulated and condensation free. Brexit and the collapse of the Red Wall vote for the Tories is related. They went on for ages about that £350m, and since then immigration has increased. They just fucked them over, but Brexit itself was needed as a means to achieving the advertised goals, but they never told them well actually we are not going to have a bonfire of regs, but keep them as is.
The thing is, however smug you are as a politician and think you have tricked the electorate nicely, eventually the truth comes out. Once an information source is perceived to be dishonest the average person dumps all the information from that source, e.g. News of the World could never continue after what happened. You end up blowing it completely. Yet another example is the EV car. For some people they are excellent and well appreciated, but it all depends on your personal circumstances. Any businessman should know it is a false economy to shit your customers. EVs and heat pumps are ok if your circumstances are right or you have enough money to make them right . They are like trumpets .Buying a trumpet is ok if you live in the right place or if you have enough money to move to the right place . |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jan 24, 2024 19:55:23 GMT
Brexit and the collapse of the Red Wall vote for the Tories is related. They went on for ages about that £350m, and since then immigration has increased. They just fucked them over, but Brexit itself was needed as a means to achieving the advertised goals, but they never told them well actually we are not going to have a bonfire of regs, but keep them as is.
The thing is, however smug you are as a politician and think you have tricked the electorate nicely, eventually the truth comes out. Once an information source is perceived to be dishonest the average person dumps all the information from that source, e.g. News of the World could never continue after what happened. You end up blowing it completely. Yet another example is the EV car. For some people they are excellent and well appreciated, but it all depends on your personal circumstances. Any businessman should know it is a false economy to shit your customers. EVs and heat pumps are ok if your circumstances are right or you have enough money to make them right . They are like trumpets .Buying a trumpet is ok if you live in the right place or if you have enough money to move to the right place . Yes and it is a value thing as well. Rolls Royce went to extraordinary effort to make their cars totally silent and yet with EVs that comes as standard. Another point was when EVs first came out they were breaking records, like the fastest 1/4 mile on a motorcycle was archived by an EV. it's what you are into. I believe traders should sell them exactly as they are so the customer knows the pros and cons. Even if you say, ah but everyone is into climate change so we must push them. Well no, because if people really did believe in climate change they would buy one anyway. Every time the government sticks itself in the market to manipulate it, all that happens is overall we lose money. It is important to closely fit the product to the requirements of the customer.
Oh and one other fuckup worth a mention was after testing hybrids it was found that they create more pollution and CO2 than their petrol equivalent. This is to do with how an engine runs dirty until it gets to its full temperature. the government just didn't think to test them. Now the advice is 180 degree reversed. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 24, 2024 20:02:42 GMT
EVs and heat pumps are ok if your circumstances are right or you have enough money to make them right . They are like trumpets .Buying a trumpet is ok if you live in the right place or if you have enough money to move to the right place . Yes and it is a value thing as well. Rolls Royce went to extraordinary effort to make their cars totally silent and yet with EVs that comes as standard. Another point was when EVs first came out they were breaking records, like the fastest 1/4 mile on a motorcycle was archived by an EV. it's what you are into. I believe traders should sell them exactly as they are so the customer knows the pros and cons. Even if you say, ah but everyone is into climate change so we must push them. Well no, because if people really did believe in climate change they would buy one anyway. Every time the government sticks itself in the market to manipulate it, all that happens is overall we lose money. It is important to closely fit the product to the requirements of the customer.
Oh and one other fuckup worth a mention was after testing hybrids it was found that they create more pollution and CO2 than their petrol equivalent. This is to do with how an engine runs dirty until it gets to its full temperature. the government just didn't think to test them. Now the advice is 180 degree reversed. If you believe that the government is working towards replacing ICE vehicles with EVs then the situation is confusing at best . Nothing the government is doing seems to be working towards that goal . However if you think that the government is working towards drastically reducing the number of privately owned vehicles then it all makes sense . Im not sure about what the government is working towards regarding heat pumps . I suspect they have no idea tbh. I do think that gas boilers are going to be around for a bit longer than the net zero zealots would like though . |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jan 24, 2024 21:47:39 GMT
Yes and it is a value thing as well. Rolls Royce went to extraordinary effort to make their cars totally silent and yet with EVs that comes as standard. Another point was when EVs first came out they were breaking records, like the fastest 1/4 mile on a motorcycle was archived by an EV. it's what you are into. I believe traders should sell them exactly as they are so the customer knows the pros and cons. Even if you say, ah but everyone is into climate change so we must push them. Well no, because if people really did believe in climate change they would buy one anyway. Every time the government sticks itself in the market to manipulate it, all that happens is overall we lose money. It is important to closely fit the product to the requirements of the customer.
Oh and one other fuckup worth a mention was after testing hybrids it was found that they create more pollution and CO2 than their petrol equivalent. This is to do with how an engine runs dirty until it gets to its full temperature. the government just didn't think to test them. Now the advice is 180 degree reversed. If you believe that the government is working towards replacing ICE vehicles with EVs then the situation is confusing at best . Nothing the government is doing seems to be working towards that goal . However if you think that the government is working towards drastically reducing the number of privately owned vehicles then it all makes sense . Im not sure about what the government is working towards regarding heat pumps . I suspect they have no idea tbh. I do think that gas boilers are going to be around for a bit longer than the net zero zealots would like though . I think a heat pump will win out today if you build the house from scratch so the house works with the heat pump and then you cover the roof with solar panels. Doing all that would create a more comfortable place to live in and work out cheaper in the long-term, but that is over say if you were planning on using it for 20 years. You can amortise the cost. As for myself, I have a perfectly good gas boiler and I don't expect to be living here for that much longer.
Actually what i reckon needs doing in those country is totally levelling a few places and then start again with new houses. It would get rid of all the crime and shit, and get rid of the very worst of the houses in this country which are not fit to live in and many are boarded up. If you completely start again from scratch and plan the whole system you could get even better energy economy. For example with a SMR reactor you could channel the heat it produces via underground hot water pipes and heat the houses that way. A nuclear reactor generates far more heat energy than it does electrical energy, an often this is just dumped.
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 24, 2024 22:15:19 GMT
I think a heat pump will win out today if you build the house from scratch so the house works with the heat pump and then you cover the roof with solar panels. Doing all that would create a more comfortable place to live in and work out cheaper in the long-term, but that is over say if you were planning on using it for 20 years. You can amortise the cost. As for myself, I have a perfectly good gas boiler and I don't expect to be living here for that much longer. Actually what i reckon needs doing in those country is totally levelling a few places and then start again with new houses. It would get rid of all the crime and shit, and get rid of the very worst of the houses in this country which are not fit to live in and many are boarded up. If you completely start again from scratch and plan the whole system you could get even better energy economy. For example with a SMR reactor you could channel the heat it produces via underground hot water pipes and heat the houses that way. A nuclear reactor generates far more heat energy than it does electrical energy, an often this is just dumped. Heat pumps 'may be' popular one day, but it's going to take a long time, end of the century possibly before the vast majority of UK housing stock is suitable for heat pumps and by that time I suspect heat pumps will have developed beyond anything we recognise today, or indeed replaced by other technology. When it comes to green technology I think we 're running before we can walk. EV batteries are expensive and heavy, they tend to burst into flames and the environmental impact is being hidden, for now. Like heat pump tech, EV tech will improve but it's not going to improve overnight and the government should not force people to invest in unproven expensive 'green' tech that will inevitably be outdated before it's paid for. Your second para is ridiculous. If you levelled all the properties that are unsuitable for heat pumps about 70% of the population would be homeless. The vast majority of UK housing stock wont be ready for heat pumps for many decades. |
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Post by Bentley on Jan 24, 2024 22:22:40 GMT
I think a heat pump will win out today if you build the house from scratch so the house works with the heat pump and then you cover the roof with solar panels. Doing all that would create a more comfortable place to live in and work out cheaper in the long-term, but that is over say if you were planning on using it for 20 years. You can amortise the cost. As for myself, I have a perfectly good gas boiler and I don't expect to be living here for that much longer. Actually what i reckon needs doing in those country is totally levelling a few places and then start again with new houses. It would get rid of all the crime and shit, and get rid of the very worst of the houses in this country which are not fit to live in and many are boarded up. If you completely start again from scratch and plan the whole system you could get even better energy economy. For example with a SMR reactor you could channel the heat it produces via underground hot water pipes and heat the houses that way. A nuclear reactor generates far more heat energy than it does electrical energy, an often this is just dumped. Heat pumps 'may be' popular one day, but it's going to take a long time, end of the century possibly before the vast majority of UK housing stock is suitable for heat pumps and by that time I suspect heat pumps will have developed beyond anything we recognise today, or indeed replaced by other technology. When it comes to green technology I think we 're running before we can walk. EV batteries are expensive and heavy, they tend to burst into flames and the environmental impact is being hidden, for now. Like heat pump tech, EV tech will improve but it's not going to improve overnight and the government should not force people to invest in unproven expensive 'green' tech that will inevitably be outdated before it's paid for. Your second para is ridiculous. If you levelled all the properties that are unsuitable for heat pumps about 70% of the population would be homeless. The vast majority of UK housing stock wont be ready for heat pumps for many decades. Indeed. Levelling the properties is not going to happen soon . Maybe when we are in the “ own nothing and be happy “ stage . What will probably happen is a step back to free standing electric heaters in the winter to supplement the heat pumps and cold homes . |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jan 24, 2024 22:33:13 GMT
I think a heat pump will win out today if you build the house from scratch so the house works with the heat pump and then you cover the roof with solar panels. Doing all that would create a more comfortable place to live in and work out cheaper in the long-term, but that is over say if you were planning on using it for 20 years. You can amortise the cost. As for myself, I have a perfectly good gas boiler and I don't expect to be living here for that much longer. Actually what i reckon needs doing in those country is totally levelling a few places and then start again with new houses. It would get rid of all the crime and shit, and get rid of the very worst of the houses in this country which are not fit to live in and many are boarded up. If you completely start again from scratch and plan the whole system you could get even better energy economy. For example with a SMR reactor you could channel the heat it produces via underground hot water pipes and heat the houses that way. A nuclear reactor generates far more heat energy than it does electrical energy, an often this is just dumped. Heat pumps 'may be' popular one day, but it's going to take a long time, end of the century possibly before the vast majority of UK housing stock is suitable for heat pumps and by that time I suspect heat pumps will have developed beyond anything we recognise today, or indeed replaced by other technology. When it comes to green technology I think we 're running before we can walk. EV batteries are expensive and heavy, they tend to burst into flames and the environmental impact is being hidden, for now. Like heat pump tech, EV tech will improve but it's not going to improve overnight and the government should not force people to invest in unproven expensive 'green' tech that will inevitably be outdated before it's paid for. Your second para is ridiculous. If you levelled all the properties that are unsuitable for heat pumps about 70% of the population would be homeless. The vast majority of UK housing stock wont be ready for heat pumps for many decades. You misunderstand my point. I was not suggesting we knock down 70% of homes. I'm saying we knock down say the 10% of the shittiest homes in the shittiest of areas and just completely redevelop the land. You would have to put some industry up there as well, a bit like the new towns they built. In the areas I'm talking about the average house is worth less than 10 grand and the are is so dilapidated that it is simply a waste of land. When you start from scratch and build in large quantity you can really reduce your production costs. I used to know a developer who explained all of this to me. It's the kind of investment that would pay back over many years in both helping the housing problem and creating areas that overall worked efficiently and were nice to live in, with green spaces and shops in close proximity. So what you would do in effect is make the worst 10% of homes into the best 10% with the latest green tech. It's the 'don't do things by halves' philosophy. Build quality and they will be worth a lot of money. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Jan 24, 2024 22:46:28 GMT
Heat pumps 'may be' popular one day, but it's going to take a long time, end of the century possibly before the vast majority of UK housing stock is suitable for heat pumps and by that time I suspect heat pumps will have developed beyond anything we recognise today, or indeed replaced by other technology. When it comes to green technology I think we 're running before we can walk. EV batteries are expensive and heavy, they tend to burst into flames and the environmental impact is being hidden, for now. Like heat pump tech, EV tech will improve but it's not going to improve overnight and the government should not force people to invest in unproven expensive 'green' tech that will inevitably be outdated before it's paid for. Your second para is ridiculous. If you levelled all the properties that are unsuitable for heat pumps about 70% of the population would be homeless. The vast majority of UK housing stock wont be ready for heat pumps for many decades. Indeed. Levelling the properties is not going to happen soon . Maybe when we are in the “ own nothing and be happy “ stage . What will probably happen is a step back to free standing electric heaters in the winter to supplement the heat pumps and cold homes . I just found this short video on Hanley.
It looks like everyone has moved out.
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Post by Bentley on Jan 24, 2024 22:52:38 GMT
Indeed. Levelling the properties is not going to happen soon . Maybe when we are in the “ own nothing and be happy “ stage . What will probably happen is a step back to free standing electric heaters in the winter to supplement the heat pumps and cold homes . I just found this short video on Hanley.
It looks like everyone has moved out.
I suppose you could level them then. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 24, 2024 22:56:28 GMT
Indeed. Levelling the properties is not going to happen soon . Maybe when we are in the “ own nothing and be happy “ stage . What will probably happen is a step back to free standing electric heaters in the winter to supplement the heat pumps and cold homes . I think one of the reasons the government are 'encouraging' us to embrace smart meters is because when we're all driving EV's and relying on electric heaters in the winter, and wood burners are outlawed on environmental grounds, the government will realise we havent got enough electricity. This is where smart metres come in, they make it easier to ration electricity. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Jan 24, 2024 23:01:47 GMT
I just found this short video on Hanley. It looks like everyone has moved out. BvL I've mentioned it before, these days Stoke and Burton have more in common with downtown Mogadishu than traditional English towns. |
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