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Post by Deleted on Dec 20, 2023 19:43:48 GMT
So now we do a trade-off between innocent people convicted of crimes who get the death penalty, against those murdered by people who would otherwise have been hung. No thank you One innocent person sentenced to death for a crime they did not commit is too many, and if anything is needed here, it is not the return of the death penalty, it is for Life Sentence to mean Life. The other important thing to point out is that the death penalty is not a deterant - the USA is virtually the only western democracy which still uses the death penalty, and yet it has the highest homocide rate. You are correct of course. But in a minute someone will no doubt raise the cost of keeping them behind bars for life, preferring to do away with them to save money, in the certain knowledge that occasionally it will be someone innocent. Of course what that amounts to is the certain knowledge that sometimes an innocent person will be killed by the state, being a price worth paying to cut their taxes. At its core it really as as morally repugnant and selfish as that. But someone always tries to make the case on cost grounds nevertheless.
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Post by bancroft on Dec 20, 2023 19:43:51 GMT
Just imagine how many innocent people would now be dead if we had not done away with capital punishment ? Timothy Evans, neighbour of John Christie was wrongly found guilty of murdering his wife and child, he was hung. There is a list of people who have been imprisoned for murder, and later found to be innocent and released, but if we still had the death penalty, they would have been hung as innocent people. in the USA, 130 people sentenced to death have been found innocent since 1973 and released from death row. Source: Amnesty In the past decade alone no fewar than 129 murderers who were jailed for life were freed to kill again - link - Just imagine how many innocent people would be alive today if the punishment properly fitted the crime. Why do lefties always mention Evans? Things have moved on quite a lot over the past 70 years. Back then there was no such thing as DNA profiling. Unlike today prison was a strict and austere environment in which offenders did not want to visit twice. Today lefty lawyers would have a field day if prisoners were incarcerated in strict austere prisons. Not interested in USA. I recall you once saying your wife was being stalked and you were close to taking action, one punch can sometimes kill. Any thoughts?
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 20, 2023 19:45:37 GMT
In the past decade alone no fewar than 129 murderers who were jailed for life were freed to kill again - link - Just imagine how many innocent people would be alive today if the punishment properly fitted the crime. Why do lefties always mention Evans? Things have moved on quite a lot over the past 70 years. Back then there was no such thing as DNA profiling. Unlike today prison was a strict and austere environment in which offenders did not want to visit twice. Today lefty lawyers would have a field day if prisoners were incarcerated in strict austere prisons. Not interested in USA. I recall you once saying your wife was being stalked and you were close to taking action, one punch can sometimes kill. Any thoughts? Indeed I was close, fortunately the police talked some sense into me.
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Post by jonksy on Dec 21, 2023 1:46:20 GMT
So now we do a trade-off between innocent people convicted of crimes who get the death penalty, against those murdered by people who would otherwise have been hung. No thank you One innocent person sentenced to death for a crime they did not commit is too many, and if anything is needed here, it is not the return of the death penalty, it is for Life Sentence to mean Life. The other important thing to point out is that the death penalty is not a deterant - the USA is virtually the only western democracy which still uses the death penalty, and yet it has the highest homocide rate. You are correct of course. But in a minute someone will no doubt raise the cost of keeping them behind bars for life, preferring to do away with them to save money, in the certain knowledge that occasionally it will be someone innocent. Of course what that amounts to is the certain knowledge that sometimes an innocent person will be killed by the state, being a price worth paying to cut their taxes. At its core it really as as morally repugnant and selfish as that. But someone always tries to make the case on cost grounds nevertheless. With DNA we can be pretty certain of their guilt. And we do not have enough prisons to hold these aresehols for life. Why do you think that our unwanted imports are put in 5 star hotels?
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 21, 2023 1:50:47 GMT
You are correct of course. But in a minute someone will no doubt raise the cost of keeping them behind bars for life, preferring to do away with them to save money, in the certain knowledge that occasionally it will be someone innocent. Of course what that amounts to is the certain knowledge that sometimes an innocent person will be killed by the state, being a price worth paying to cut their taxes. At its core it really as as morally repugnant and selfish as that. But someone always tries to make the case on cost grounds nevertheless. With DNA we can be pretty certain of their guilt. And we do not have enough prisons to hold these aresehols for life. Why do you think that our unwanted imports are put in 5 star hotels? All the DNA evidence in the world can't prove mens rea.
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Post by bancroft on Dec 21, 2023 15:12:17 GMT
It would be interesting to see how many lifers would choose Euthanasia if given the choice?
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Post by Dogburger on Dec 21, 2023 16:15:40 GMT
Triple killer sentenced to life in prison, again. Lawrence Bierton was sentenced to life in prison in 1996 for murdering two people. He was released on licence in 2017 (21 years for murdering two people) He was recalled to prison in July 2018 for repeated failures to address his behaviour. He was released for a second time in May 2020 and murdered again in 2021 - linkIf Lawrence Bierton had been executed for committing double murder in 1996, his third victim Pauline Quinn would be alive today. Typical hard right extremism. Make life in Prison mean exactly that, by law. I.E. no reprieve for Murder. There is absolutely no logical reason for this individual to be allowed to go free a second time, never mind the first time. Tighten up the law, that's all that is needed. Incidentally, IIRC the UK was the last country in Europe to abolish the death penalty. Not so , Belarus still has the death penalty and Latvia (2012 ) was the last EU member to completely abolish it . The UK I believe did under the Blair government 1998 Its a wonder Bierton wasn't given a whole life sentence rather than life with a minimum order ,the judge fecked it up .
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Post by piglet on Dec 21, 2023 16:28:59 GMT
I visited the Notts hospital for the criminally insane and got into an argument with a lefty social worker about these people. One of the shocking things on the male admission ward was that staff walking down the ward had to stay in eye contact with fellow staff, if they became isolated they would be attacked and likely murdered if the inmates could do it.
On a female admission ward there were three teenage girls in straight jackets, staring at us in a scary way that stays with me today. I dont know if it was a cry for help, or sizing us up for murder.
Inmates have murdered for a cigarrette. There was a documentary about a man born with psychopathic genes, but he never expressed violence because his upbringing was caring and easy, but the potential was there and it didnt take much to bring out frustration and anger.
This answers the rehab question, some people are born bad, or with less emotive language, violence physically and emotionally, no amount of rehab will contain it, indeed, as with bad people, kindness and liberalism will be seen as weakness. Even with effective treatments for psychosis many remain people you dont want to know, its true in general psychiatry too, why that is i dont know. Not in all cases though, obviously.
It has been said that were all a bit funny, in other words we all have a personality disorder of some type that does manifest, the statistical number of people with perfect mental health is about one per cent.
I have studied high mental health and what that is rather than ill health. Any way, even when people with a serious personality disorder are punished, it makes no difference, they cant learn from that, they dont learn from the ordinary experiences from life, they dont know right from wrong, and never will, they are like an animal in the wild.
You would never share a cage with a bear. Rehab in many cases is a big mistake, the potential for something very bad is always there. That doesnt stop the social workers though, they dont see bad in anything, im sure they are responsible for serious re offending.
Rehab is done in a multi disciplinary way, the consultant psychiatrist has most say, thank god, he is legally responsible. Psychosis is common in the population, people hear voices, many are kind and good, some not, and dont warrant treatment.
Im sure people with a default for violence can change, from an animal to a caring human being, its the task god has, probably over many lifetimes, after all most of us are not murderers, its creeping forward inch by inch. Life is an oppurtunity. But if ordinary people suffer, thats not on. Age does make a difference, an old psychopath is less violent than a young one, but remains violent. As for capital punishment, its a societal thing, if we can afford it, then a hospital or prison is better, for the patient at least.
Since the cessation of wars that had hand to hand fighting, society has far far more of these people in general society, indeed, Sunak lets them in re the boats. In the old days when we had a war and we needed soldiers, the British army were expert at picking these people out and putting them on the frontline, i mean, who would want to face a psychopathic scot?
Its not a joke, the army won many battles trough the sound of bagpipes, the enemy would melt away. In times further back, they were called berserkers. And through such, society became safer.
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 21, 2023 16:40:54 GMT
In response to that last post, and focussed purely on the aspect of war, too bloody true, we used to fight total war, and did it with the help of nutters. Beserker is a term i first heard of in terms of viking history but i’m quite sure others had similar
The problem of course is while hand to hand fighting with appalling losses needs a steady stream of such people, what in the name of god do we do with them when we have no one to wage war with.
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Post by see2 on Dec 21, 2023 16:46:08 GMT
You post like an outraged Far Righty screaming for extremism. Which is why such Righties must never gain control, between your extremism and the unbelievable horrors of extreme right wing control in many countries, it is clear that avoiding this extremism is a necessity. Punishment is no deterrent, neither is the death penalty. For me three things need to happen: 1. Correct the law. 2. Ensure that mothers in particular learn and understand the needs, not wants, of the child, and especially those of the male child. 3. Greater fairness in a 'one people society'. If the country would clean up its act there would be far less crime to have to deal with. Honestly, you do talk some bloody rubbish. In your expert (lol) opinion, when was the last time we had a far right extremist government who imposed unbelievable horrors on this country? Honestly you're such a drama queen, a typical shouty lefty. As for crime and punishment. Prison is first and foremost a "punishment". If it also acts as a deterrent all well and good, but make no mistake the primary purpose of prison is to deny offenders their liberty, or to put it another way, to punish them. Unfortunately the relaxed and comfortable regime todays offenders are faced with is little punishment and no deterrent, as shown by the ridiculous rates of recidivism. As for your three points: 1. I agree, the law should be corrected, as you put it. However I think we may be talking at cross purposes. 2. I'm not quite sure where this little vignette is going, or indeed what it has to do with crime and punishment! 3. Explain what you mean by a 'one person society'. That you got your first comment wrong from start to finish is real Righty stuff. I have never claimed or even suggested the UK has ever had a far right government, undermining the right-wing helps to ensure we never do have one. My second comment will not be understood by many. I will put it as simply as I can. Humans are designed to wary of and to learn danger, which is then recorded as fear in the emotional system. The greater this learnt fear level is in the system, the lower the individual will unwittingly find themselves on a feel-good scale. The child born has a sensory awareness of the mother and the mother represents safety to the child. It is to a very large degree that the experiences learnt in the first two years of life will determine the fear levels owned by each individual. The higher the fear levels learnt, the likelihood is of anger and dissatisfaction will be present in the adult. 'A one people society'. Basically everyone is treated fairly. Efforts will be made to encourage businesses big and small, to avoid unemployment, to help and encourage people to improve themselves and to avoid the denigration and insults of the people one does not agree with. There are no such things as perfect human beings, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, which is why I can disagree with you but still like you
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Post by see2 on Dec 21, 2023 16:50:22 GMT
Typical hard right extremism. Make life in Prison mean exactly that, by law. I.E. no reprieve for Murder. There is absolutely no logical reason for this individual to be allowed to go free a second time, never mind the first time. Tighten up the law, that's all that is needed. Incidentally, IIRC the UK was the last country in Europe to abolish the death penalty. Not so , Belarus still has the death penalty and Latvia (2012 ) was the last EU member to completely abolish it . The UK I believe did under the Blair government 1998 Its a wonder Bierton wasn't given a whole life sentence rather than life with a minimum order ,the judge fecked it up . OK then, one of the last countries in Europe. __"The last executions in the United Kingdom were by hanging, and took place in 1964; capital punishment for murder was suspended in 1965 and finally abolished in 1969 (1973 in Northern Ireland).
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Post by zanygame on Dec 21, 2023 17:10:10 GMT
Indeed, yet today judges are told to send fewar people to prison, and offenders who are sent to prison often get lenient sentences. Rather than going soft on crime and punishment, we should quite obviously build more prisons. And it wouldn't be a bad thing if one or two had gallows. Just think Red how much capital punsihment would save Italian tax payers.
Pakistani 'honour killing' parents are jailed for life in Italy over the murder of their daughter, 18, who had her neck broken when she refused an arranged marriage
Saman Abbas, 18, was living near Bologna when she disappeared in May 2021 She had rejected her family's demands to marry a cousin, with a court ruling that her parents had ordered her killing and that she was strangled by her uncle
Cool. Immigrants and lefty judges in one post. Double points awarded.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 21, 2023 17:13:14 GMT
Just imagine how many innocent people would now be dead if we had not done away with capital punishment ? Timothy Evans, neighbour of John Christie was wrongly found guilty of murdering his wife and child, he was hung. There is a list of people who have been imprisoned for murder, and later found to be innocent and released, but if we still had the death penalty, they would have been hung as innocent people. in the USA, 130 people sentenced to death have been found innocent since 1973 and released from death row. Source: Amnesty In the past decade alone no fewar than 129 murderers who were jailed for life were freed to kill again - link - Just imagine how many innocent people would be alive today if the punishment properly fitted the crime. Why do lefties always mention Evans? Things have moved on quite a lot over the past 70 years. Back then there was no such thing as DNA profiling. Unlike today prison was a strict and austere environment in which offenders did not want to visit twice. Today lefty lawyers would have a field day if prisoners were incarcerated in strict austere prisons. Not interested in USA. The answer seems obvious. Life in prison should mean life in prison. Solves both problems.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 21, 2023 17:18:58 GMT
In response to that last post, and focussed purely on the aspect of war, too bloody true, we used to fight total war, and did it with the help of nutters. Beserker is a term i first heard of in terms of viking history but i’m quite sure others had similar The problem of course is while hand to hand fighting with appalling losses needs a steady stream of such people, what in the name of god do we do with them when we have no one to wage war with. Unfortunately dying alongside that steady stream of psychotics were thousands of ordinary people.
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 21, 2023 17:25:46 GMT
That you got your first comment wrong from start to finish is real Righty stuff. I have never claimed or even suggested the UK has ever had a far right government, undermining the right-wing helps to ensure we never do have one. My second comment will not be understood by many. I will put it as simply as I can. Humans are designed to wary of and to learn danger, which is then recorded as fear in the emotional system. The greater this learnt fear level is in the system, the lower the individual will unwittingly find themselves on a feel-good scale. The child born has a sensory awareness of the mother and the mother represents safety to the child. It is to a very large degree that the experiences learnt in the first two years of life will determine the fear levels owned by each individual. The higher the fear levels learnt, the likelihood is of anger and dissatisfaction will be present in the adult. 'A one people society'. Basically everyone is treated fairly. Efforts will be made to encourage businesses big and small, to avoid unemployment, to help and encourage people to improve themselves and to avoid the denigration and insults of the people one does not agree with. There are no such things as perfect human beings, we all have our strengths and weaknesses, which is why I can disagree with you but still like you How people react to danger is a complicated subject, not to mention a huge digression. 'Everyone treated fairly', yes indeed what a lovely thought. However, back in the real world life for many isn't fair, it should be but it isn't. Crime is off the scale, thanks to mass immigration the country has become ghettoised, we have never had more foreign criminals in UK prisons, hundreds of thousands of illegals are invading this country from the EU, social infrastructure cant cope, people cant get housing, they cant get dentist appointments, they cant get doctors appointments, they cant get school places, all of which affects the quality of life for people who work hard and have paid into the system all their lives only to be pushed to the back of the queue because of diversity quotas and local authorities who prioritise illegal immigrants who have contributed absolutely nothing to this country. Like charity, 'fairness' starts at home.
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