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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 11, 2023 17:29:06 GMT
Since he seems to be a little bashful to do it himself, I thought I'd outline the plan for him.
Basically, what Zany is looking to do is to dial down the present focus on preventing migrants arriving by use of force, barriers, threats of deportation to deepest Africa and substitute instead an approach based on kindness. The fundamental objective is to improve living conditions in the sending countries to such an extent that there will be little incentive to migrate to the West, at least in such great numbers as today.
We had an extensive discussion on an earlier forum on the pros and cons of such an approach and since the migration picture has deteriorated even further in the intervening period I thought it an opportune time to open it up again.
Perhaps I should just briefly encapsulate my counter-argument to Zany's proposition which was that stout fencing with lots of well-armed border guards, together with secure detention in not very appealing locations for the few who got through, would be a better and more cost-effective approach.
Any and all thoughts are welcome (subject to Mind Zone criteria).
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2023 18:19:01 GMT
Since he seems to be a little bashful to do it himself, I thought I'd outline the plan for him.
Basically, what Zany is looking to do is to dial down the present focus on preventing migrants arriving by use of force, barriers, threats of deportation to deepest Africa and substitute instead an approach based on kindness. The fundamental objective is to improve living conditions in the sending countries to such an extent that there will be little incentive to migrate to the West, at least in such great numbers as today.
We had an extensive discussion on an earlier forum on the pros and cons of such an approach and since the migration picture has deteriorated even further in the intervening period I thought it an opportune time to open it up again.
Perhaps I should just briefly encapsulate my counter-argument to Zany's proposition which was that stout fencing with lots of well-armed border guards, together with secure detention in not very appealing locations for the few who got through, would be a better and more cost-effective approach.
Any and all thoughts are welcome (subject to Mind Zone criteria).
Most migration into this country is legal migration to fill jobs that local people won't do. I mean care work is highly responsible and in some ways very emotionally and physically demanding and at times quite demeaning - not to put too fine a point on it, wiping shitty assholes for example, or cleaning and changing soiled dementia patients. This is necessary work but no British person will do such stressful and demanding work for minimum wage when you can be paid more for sitting on a supermarket checkout. So they rely on migrant workers to fill such roles as an alternative to paying decent pay for the job, but once they are banned from bringing in their partners and any kids to live with them they are going to stop coming. Which is fine for reducing legal immigration but at the cost of being disastrous for adult social care. The better way forward would be to pay a good enough wage for such a role to attract British workers from other sectors like retail, and then you wont need the migrants anyway. |
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Post by BvL on Dec 11, 2023 18:35:17 GMT
Since he seems to be a little bashful to do it himself, I thought I'd outline the plan for him.
Basically, what Zany is looking to do is to dial down the present focus on preventing migrants arriving by use of force, barriers, threats of deportation to deepest Africa and substitute instead an approach based on kindness. The fundamental objective is to improve living conditions in the sending countries to such an extent that there will be little incentive to migrate to the West, at least in such great numbers as today.
We had an extensive discussion on an earlier forum on the pros and cons of such an approach and since the migration picture has deteriorated even further in the intervening period I thought it an opportune time to open it up again.
Perhaps I should just briefly encapsulate my counter-argument to Zany's proposition which was that stout fencing with lots of well-armed border guards, together with secure detention in not very appealing locations for the few who got through, would be a better and more cost-effective approach.
Any and all thoughts are welcome (subject to Mind Zone criteria).
Most migration into this country is legal migration to fill jobs that local people won't do. I mean care work is highly responsible and in some ways very emotionally and physically demanding and at times quite demeaning - not to put too fine a point on it, wiping shitty assholes for example, or cleaning and changing soiled dementia patients. This is necessary work but no British person will do such stressful and demanding work for minimum wage when you can be paid more for sitting on a supermarket checkout. So they rely on migrant workers to fill such roles as an alternative to paying decent pay for the job, but once they are banned from bringing in their partners and any kids to live with them they are going to stop coming. Which is fine for reducing legal immigration but at the cost of being disastrous for adult social care. The better way forward would be to pay a good enough wage for such a role to attract British workers from other sectors like retail, and then you wont need the migrants anyway. Jobs like looking after babies and elderly relatives is a woman's job. Sure some of it is not too pleasant to us men, but how many woman would like to operate a pneumatic drill? You can count them on one hand. For one thing we should do something about the bloated charity sector. Too many women have got involved in too much talking work for pollicised charities. Another bunch of wasted women are the ones who get involved in PR and processing forms full of stupid questions and all of that. Construction on HS2 looks like the usual as well. I drove past it and saw all these huge cranes and so on, but absolutely no work was being done. Foreigners often say British workers are a joke. You never see them do much work at all. |
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Post by bancroft on Dec 11, 2023 18:47:03 GMT
In my book if you can't take care of yourself Dignitas is the best example disappointingly too many have been led up the garden path by the NHS offering magical solutions.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2023 19:37:12 GMT
Most migration into this country is legal migration to fill jobs that local people won't do. I mean care work is highly responsible and in some ways very emotionally and physically demanding and at times quite demeaning - not to put too fine a point on it, wiping shitty assholes for example, or cleaning and changing soiled dementia patients. This is necessary work but no British person will do such stressful and demanding work for minimum wage when you can be paid more for sitting on a supermarket checkout. So they rely on migrant workers to fill such roles as an alternative to paying decent pay for the job, but once they are banned from bringing in their partners and any kids to live with them they are going to stop coming. Which is fine for reducing legal immigration but at the cost of being disastrous for adult social care. The better way forward would be to pay a good enough wage for such a role to attract British workers from other sectors like retail, and then you wont need the migrants anyway. Jobs like looking after babies and elderly relatives is a woman's job. Sure some of it is not too pleasant to us men, but how many woman would like to operate a pneumatic drill? You can count them on one hand. For one thing we should do something about the bloated charity sector. Too many women have got involved in too much talking work for pollicised charities. Another bunch of wasted women are the ones who get involved in PR and processing forms full of stupid questions and all of that. Construction on HS2 looks like the usual as well. I drove past it and saw all these huge cranes and so on, but absolutely no work was being done. Foreigners often say British workers are a joke. You never see them do much work at all. In another post on another thread you were stereotyping Jews. Now are are stereotyping women with the usual sexist nonsense. You think like some being who still lives in the 1950s in your head. I doubt very much whether many people see you doing much work either. Like most of those elements of the entitled classes you think work is for lesser mortals. I suggest you spend some time working in a care home or on a construction site but I daresay you think that is beneath you whilst decrying the workshy. As for no one working on a construction site, that is far more likely to be down to the employers and not the workers. Because it tends to be the employers making the decisions. And if the workers were actually on strike I am sure we would have heard all about it. You clearly view the world through the distorting lens of your own bigoted assumptions |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2023 19:42:01 GMT
In my book if you can't take care of yourself Dignitas is the best example disappointingly too many have been led up the garden path by the NHS offering magical solutions. I wish we had that option in this country. Because until we do it is only open to those who can afford to travel abroad and then pay for it. If we are not allowed to end our own lives at a time of our choosing, then becoming a burden on others will be inevitable for many of us because thats just the way it is. With appropriate safeguards, I am in favour of voluntary euthanasia. I know what the end looks like in my own case. I'd rather die before it got that far, at a time when I feel life is no longer worth living. |
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Post by BvL on Dec 11, 2023 20:17:29 GMT
Jobs like looking after babies and elderly relatives is a woman's job. Sure some of it is not too pleasant to us men, but how many woman would like to operate a pneumatic drill? You can count them on one hand. For one thing we should do something about the bloated charity sector. Too many women have got involved in too much talking work for pollicised charities. Another bunch of wasted women are the ones who get involved in PR and processing forms full of stupid questions and all of that. Construction on HS2 looks like the usual as well. I drove past it and saw all these huge cranes and so on, but absolutely no work was being done. Foreigners often say British workers are a joke. You never see them do much work at all. In another post on another thread you were stereotyping Jews. Now are are stereotyping women with the usual sexist nonsense. You think like some being who still lives in the 1950s in your head. I doubt very much whether many people see you doing much work either. Like most of those elements of the entitled classes you think work is for lesser mortals. I suggest you spend some time working in a care home or on a construction site but I daresay you think that is beneath you whilst decrying the workshy. As for no one working on a construction site, that is far more likely to be down to the employers and not the workers. Because it tends to be the employers making the decisions. And if the workers were actually on strike I am sure we would have heard all about it. You clearly view the world through the distorting lens of your own bigoted assumptions It's our country which has it wrong regarding women. My Maltese woman is pretty traditional, as is my Italian lady and my brother's Chinese wife, who are all typical of their respective cultures. It's a strong tradition in China the woman looks after the children and elderly in the family where the man is supposed to provide protection, and what we call the bread winner. This is very similar to Catholic countries like Italy and Malta, where I have known quite a few people. Yes indeed it is what I believe, and to compliment the Jews on their financial acumen is not a problem surely. I've had some close Jewish friends as well and found them to be decent, and indeed another culture that is greatly misunderstood. I just can't fathom how you can think it is better to ignore cultural differences and try and squeeze them all into one monochrome identity. Our nation is encouraging people to take up jobs they are ill-fitted to. For example myself, since you like to be interested in me, is someone who hates repetitive jobs, likes jobs that are a challenge and tricky to do and also tends to work in a kind of 'all or nothing' type of routine. When I'm working I might do 12hrs a day, and when I'm not working I am very relaxed. It's a more masculine characteristic. Women are the opposite and like easy repetitive work. They don't like to strain too hard, but are ok with long stints and have a lot of patience. This is why we apportion jobs between one another on this basis. Men can handle danger far better than women. Women are very grateful to men for handling dangerous stuff and men find the woman's patience invaluable too. Above all you get greater job satisfaction, which leads me to believe these monoculturists bring their unhappiness upon themselves by trying to be what they are not and rather dishonest whilst pretending. Also when someone can't do a job very well it more prone to being messed up and takes longer. This ideology has hit our nation's productivity. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2023 21:48:59 GMT
In another post on another thread you were stereotyping Jews. Now are are stereotyping women with the usual sexist nonsense. You think like some being who still lives in the 1950s in your head. I doubt very much whether many people see you doing much work either. Like most of those elements of the entitled classes you think work is for lesser mortals. I suggest you spend some time working in a care home or on a construction site but I daresay you think that is beneath you whilst decrying the workshy. As for no one working on a construction site, that is far more likely to be down to the employers and not the workers. Because it tends to be the employers making the decisions. And if the workers were actually on strike I am sure we would have heard all about it. You clearly view the world through the distorting lens of your own bigoted assumptions It's our country which has it wrong regarding women. My Maltese woman is pretty traditional, as is my Italian lady and my brother's Chinese wife, who are all typical of their respective cultures. It's a strong tradition in China the woman looks after the children and elderly in the family where the man is supposed to provide protection, and what we call the bread winner. This is very similar to Catholic countries like Italy and Malta, where I have known quite a few people. Yes indeed it is what I believe, and to compliment the Jews on their financial acumen is not a problem surely. I've had some close Jewish friends as well and found them to be decent, and indeed another culture that is greatly misunderstood. I just can't fathom how you can think it is better to ignore cultural differences and try and squeeze them all into one monochrome identity. Our nation is encouraging people to take up jobs they are ill-fitted to. For example myself, since you like to be interested in me, is someone who hates repetitive jobs, likes jobs that are a challenge and tricky to do and also tends to work in a kind of 'all or nothing' type of routine. When I'm working I might do 12hrs a day, and when I'm not working I am very relaxed. It's a more masculine characteristic. Women are the opposite and like easy repetitive work. They don't like to strain too hard, but are ok with long stints and have a lot of patience. This is why we apportion jobs between one another on this basis. Men can handle danger far better than women. Women are very grateful to men for handling dangerous stuff and men find the woman's patience invaluable too. Above all you get greater job satisfaction, which leads me to believe these monoculturists bring their unhappiness upon themselves by trying to be what they are not and rather dishonest whilst pretending. Also when someone can't do a job very well it more prone to being messed up and takes longer. This ideology has hit our nation's productivity. Stereotypical sexist nonsense. All entirely based upon sexist assumptions that are demeaning to women. The only reason you will get away with that here is that there happens to be few women on this forum. Perhaps it is a masculine trait to waste time arguing with twats in the certain knowledge that nothing we say here will ever change anything? But that would be more your line of reasoning than mine so alas I find your bigotry something I do not wish to engage with. Have you ever met an intelligent woman doing an intelligent job? Because two of my best friends are such, though one of them is a foreign national, in her case Latvian. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Dec 11, 2023 21:51:15 GMT
Since he seems to be a little bashful to do it himself, I thought I'd outline the plan for him.
Basically, what Zany is looking to do is to dial down the present focus on preventing migrants arriving by use of force, barriers, threats of deportation to deepest Africa and substitute instead an approach based on kindness. The fundamental objective is to improve living conditions in the sending countries to such an extent that there will be little incentive to migrate to the West, at least in such great numbers as today.
We had an extensive discussion on an earlier forum on the pros and cons of such an approach and since the migration picture has deteriorated even further in the intervening period I thought it an opportune time to open it up again.
Perhaps I should just briefly encapsulate my counter-argument to Zany's proposition which was that stout fencing with lots of well-armed border guards, together with secure detention in not very appealing locations for the few who got through, would be a better and more cost-effective approach.
Any and all thoughts are welcome (subject to Mind Zone criteria).
Please stick to the forum rules, especially in the Mind Zone.
''New guidelines''
5) Threads must not be aimed at individual members eg ''Jonsky and his ilk want to destroy the country''.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 11, 2023 21:56:34 GMT
It isn't 'aimed' at Zanygame since there is no implied criticism but let's wait and see if Zanygame makes a complaint first. If he does I'll be quite happy to modify the thread to comply with what is in truth quite a silly 'guideline' whose application in this particular instance appears to be prompted by the wish to avoid discussion of a topic which some factions here would rather remained unscrutinised.
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Post by Montegriffo on Dec 11, 2023 22:00:48 GMT
It isn't 'aimed' at Zanygame since there is no implied criticism but let's wait and see if Zanygame makes a complaint first. If he does I'll be quite happy to modify the thread to comply with what is in truth quite a silly 'guideline' whose application in this particular instance appears to be prompted by the wish to avoid discussion of a topic which some factions here would rather remained unscrutinised. 6. Relating to Moderators and their duties - Attacks on moderators in open forum are prohibited and any complaints should be kept to the feedback forum and be discussed in a respectful and polite manner. |
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Post by BvL on Dec 11, 2023 22:55:36 GMT
It's our country which has it wrong regarding women. My Maltese woman is pretty traditional, as is my Italian lady and my brother's Chinese wife, who are all typical of their respective cultures. It's a strong tradition in China the woman looks after the children and elderly in the family where the man is supposed to provide protection, and what we call the bread winner. This is very similar to Catholic countries like Italy and Malta, where I have known quite a few people. Yes indeed it is what I believe, and to compliment the Jews on their financial acumen is not a problem surely. I've had some close Jewish friends as well and found them to be decent, and indeed another culture that is greatly misunderstood. I just can't fathom how you can think it is better to ignore cultural differences and try and squeeze them all into one monochrome identity. Our nation is encouraging people to take up jobs they are ill-fitted to. For example myself, since you like to be interested in me, is someone who hates repetitive jobs, likes jobs that are a challenge and tricky to do and also tends to work in a kind of 'all or nothing' type of routine. When I'm working I might do 12hrs a day, and when I'm not working I am very relaxed. It's a more masculine characteristic. Women are the opposite and like easy repetitive work. They don't like to strain too hard, but are ok with long stints and have a lot of patience. This is why we apportion jobs between one another on this basis. Men can handle danger far better than women. Women are very grateful to men for handling dangerous stuff and men find the woman's patience invaluable too. Above all you get greater job satisfaction, which leads me to believe these monoculturists bring their unhappiness upon themselves by trying to be what they are not and rather dishonest whilst pretending. Also when someone can't do a job very well it more prone to being messed up and takes longer. This ideology has hit our nation's productivity. Stereotypical sexist nonsense. All entirely based upon sexist assumptions that are demeaning to women. The only reason you will get away with that here is that there happens to be few women on this forum. Perhaps it is a masculine trait to waste time arguing with twats in the certain knowledge that nothing we say here will ever change anything? But that would be more your line of reasoning than mine so alas I find your bigotry something I do not wish to engage with. Have you ever met an intelligent woman doing an intelligent job? Because two of my best friends are such, though one of them is a foreign national, in her case Latvian. The trouble is you are labelling a large proportion of the world and most of the history of civilisation as such. It's not just me, no matter how good the Thought Police perform. As for your question about intelligent women doing an intelligent job, well I know many intelligent women. I don't really know what you mean by an intelligent job, as in how intelligent it needs to be to qualify, but I guess I have. Anyway, if you were in somewhere like Malta and hooked up with a Maltese woman she would expect and even demand that you do your job as a man. You are expected to take the lead and you are expected to be right. The flip side is they do the stuff women normally do automatically. It's the same with the Italians. They will cook you pasta and it will be wonderful. Actually quite a few women I have known have been good artists and musicians. Like a woman I know as a neighbour is a very good pianist. Does that count as intelligent, as per composing and performing classical music? Another woman I know is an opera singer by night and an accountant by day. She's definitely smart and runs her own audit firm. Indeed her firm is listed in the Panama/Pandora (?) Papers. I know all sorts of women in fact. |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 11, 2023 23:28:10 GMT
Stereotypical sexist nonsense. All entirely based upon sexist assumptions that are demeaning to women. The only reason you will get away with that here is that there happens to be few women on this forum. Perhaps it is a masculine trait to waste time arguing with twats in the certain knowledge that nothing we say here will ever change anything? But that would be more your line of reasoning than mine so alas I find your bigotry something I do not wish to engage with. Have you ever met an intelligent woman doing an intelligent job? Because two of my best friends are such, though one of them is a foreign national, in her case Latvian. The trouble is you are labelling a large proportion of the world and most of the history of civilisation as such. It's not just me, no matter how good the Thought Police perform. As for your question about intelligent women doing an intelligent job, well I know many intelligent women. I don't really know what you mean by an intelligent job, as in how intelligent it needs to be to qualify, but I guess I have. Anyway, if you were in somewhere like Malta and hooked up with a Maltese woman she would expect and even demand that you do your job as a man. You are expected to take the lead and you are expected to be right. The flip side is they do the stuff women normally do automatically. It's the same with the Italians. They will cook you pasta and it will be wonderful. Actually quite a few women I have known have been good artists and musicians. Like a woman I know as a neighbour is a very good pianist. Does that count as intelligent, as per composing and performing classical music? Another woman I know is an opera singer by night and an accountant by day. She's definitely smart and runs her own audit firm. Indeed her firm is listed in the Panama/Pandora (?) Papers. I know all sorts of women in fact. For most of supposed civilisation people were tortured or burned to death for their beliefs. Does longevity make that right or should we aspire to be better than that? I have no more time to waste on your bigotries. |
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Post by BvL on Dec 12, 2023 0:32:39 GMT
The trouble is you are labelling a large proportion of the world and most of the history of civilisation as such. It's not just me, no matter how good the Thought Police perform. As for your question about intelligent women doing an intelligent job, well I know many intelligent women. I don't really know what you mean by an intelligent job, as in how intelligent it needs to be to qualify, but I guess I have. Anyway, if you were in somewhere like Malta and hooked up with a Maltese woman she would expect and even demand that you do your job as a man. You are expected to take the lead and you are expected to be right. The flip side is they do the stuff women normally do automatically. It's the same with the Italians. They will cook you pasta and it will be wonderful. Actually quite a few women I have known have been good artists and musicians. Like a woman I know as a neighbour is a very good pianist. Does that count as intelligent, as per composing and performing classical music? Another woman I know is an opera singer by night and an accountant by day. She's definitely smart and runs her own audit firm. Indeed her firm is listed in the Panama/Pandora (?) Papers. I know all sorts of women in fact. For most of supposed civilisation people were tortured or burned to death for their beliefs. Does longevity make that right or should we aspire to be better than that? I have no more time to waste on your bigotries. Bigot is one of those words of disputed etymological origin and therefore we can't really be certain what it is supposed to mean. It gets thrown about all over the place when someone thinks someone else's social views are wrong. You will have to be clearer if you want me to understand what you mean. I'm not proposing we burn them to death. I'm saying we employ people according to what they can do best, and also that sexual differences in preferences and competences in work do exist. Using your way of ignoring them means you can go against what people would prefer. You end up with unhappy workers who perform badly. Actually this reminds me of some guy I knew who was telling a story about a maths lecturer he was being taught by who let on to his students that in his mind his students would typically spend their leisure time solving these equations for fun, kind of like one does crosswords. He was bemused to find the class did not share his enthusiasm for them as a form of leisure. On the one hand you could say bloody weird oddball, but thinking about it, a guy like that working as a mathematicians is like a guy paid for having fun, indeed the perfect job. Now tell a typical woman that and she would think it crazy. Her passion might be shopping, but then she could be in retail and then that would be her dream job. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Dec 12, 2023 7:51:11 GMT
I think most of the illegal immigrants are looking for a country that gives them generous benefits and provides easy opportunities for their criminality - i.e. a thriving black economy with lax policing. That's why the UK is so popular. That's all there is to it. The only way to stop it is by proper border control and zero tolerance.
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