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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 7, 2023 15:55:07 GMT
Your honesty is welcome, and hits on an important issue. Most of us think we're 'the ordinary bloke in the street'. That leads us to believe that our personal views are held by a majority. I'm not sure that's true - for myself as much as anyone else. That's why I constantly challenge and question my own opinions. I too aspired to the sort of lifestyle my dad was promised...and enjoyed. When he retired from the police aged 53 in 1981, he was able to buy our house outright (4-bed detached, garage and garden) and live on his pension, whereas when I retired from the Armed Forces last year, at equivalent rank, pay and pension as my late father, all I could afford was a 10% deposit on such a property and will have to continue working full-time until I'm 67. Twenty-nine of the intervening forty-two years have been under Tory rule and I hardly think one can attribute this shocking lowering in quality of life to thirteen years of Labour. In terms of challenging and questioning my own opinions, since I first joined this particular online community in 2008, I have repeatedly sought to establish how conservatism could work. Unfortunately, the adversarial nature of debate here and elsewhere offers no answers, as it is consumed with everything that is perceived as bad about the political alternative(s), without clearly articulating what is good about conservatism. Personally, I don't think anyone should be 'bled dry to fund the lazy, the entitled and the third world invader', but where we differ is in the solution to that problem, not the existence of the problem itself. Ah, Maybe your dad, my dad, my grandad and indeed i am not so ‘ordinary’. Particularly your dad and in the timeframe you mention, me as well You mention your father retiring from the police in 1981 aged 53 There is absolutely no doubt the police force have done rather well certainly in the period immediately after that. I started out in the seventies as a research scientist, and had every expectation of a career path in that subject following that enjoyed by my cousin five years my senior. His parents were both industrial pharmacists running their own show, he was an organic chemist with ICI. His parents insisted he work for someone else or himself and not for them… My father was a computer hardware engineer with fingers in several defence and nuclear projects prior to his switch to a career with IBM. I began my own progress but hit a roadblock called Thatcher’s removal of state funding of science and medicine. I switched to software engineering and quickly found a niche defence market inventing better ways to kill people. We used my salary with my wife’s to get a 100% mortgage on a reasonably decent starter home in April 1983. My neighbour three houses along was a police constable. His salary already allowed him the end if terrace house with a garage, £5000 more than my mid terrace home that cost £24850 Then Thatcher took on the miners and gave us 17% mortgage rates Well they peaked at 17% At that point Mike was collecting huge overtime bonuses for kicking shit out of miners, and i was collecting similar for refining ways to reduce West Germany to radioactive molten slag should Eric Honiker choose to move his Russian T52’s (??) across the border from East Germany to West The huge salary hikes we both enjoyed meant that when the other 30 homes on the estate were reposessed as the other owners found their salaries inadequate to keep up tbe payments, Mike and I were alone in repelling the banks and their baliffs although it was a clise thing. Things calmed down a bit after that, but then Lawson and his insane six month delay in MIRAS relief removal for those living in sin pushed the estate agent’s valuation of the house we moved into in ‘88 from the £39,000 we paid in April to £86,000 the following September and a tanking to £59,000 the first weekend after dual MIRAS ended in October. But strangely after the poll tax riots the revaluation of the council tax band used that £86,000 figure and no tribunal appeal worked. So yes, i suppose you are right, i do think of myself as just an ordinary - if rather bright - bloke in the street because like my dad and his dad i had to find a way to work my arse off for every penny, unlike the likes of Boris De Piffle Kemal who has had a multi million pound sack of coin at his side from day one. The one thing i share with the lowliest street sweeper is tbe scum in Parliament strive to strip me of every penny i earn.
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Post by dappy on Dec 7, 2023 17:40:49 GMT
The current turmoil in the Tory party has been a long time comming. Ever since Cameron was prime minister the party has been slowly moving to the centre. But all is not lost, the Tories can still win the next election largely because Starmer and Labour are so mind numbingly uninspiring. Indeed Starmer is the Tories biggest asset, if only they could get their act together. Labour aren't ahead in the polls because they are any good, they are ahead in the polls because the Tories, led by centrist/globalist Sunak, are so bad. Sunak doesn't seem to understand that people are crying out for a proper centre right Conservative party who puts Britain and British people first, and believe me a lot of erstwhile Labour voters in red wall constituencies who voted for Boris want that too. Dominic Comming perhaps?? Cameron pulled the Tories back towards electability. He was a very good communicator. It seems perverse for you to use him, who get elected after years out of power, to support an argument that the Tories should shift way off their normal ground over to being effectively subsumed by UKIP. It seems the Tory big church walls are imploding. Those who vote One Nation Tory will not support populism and those who advocate populism will not tolerate even a sniff of one nationism. Something has to give.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Dec 7, 2023 17:53:07 GMT
With Sunak at the helm, the Tories have effectively become Labour.
So come the next GE we'll end up with either Rishi Starmer or Keir Sunak, in either case sitting at the head of a divided party.
And nothing will change.
The LibLabCon is dead.
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Post by see2 on Dec 7, 2023 21:22:29 GMT
With Sunak at the helm, the Tories have effectively become Labour.So come the next GE we'll end up with either Rishi Starmer or Keir Sunak, in either case sitting at the head of a divided party. And nothing will change. The LibLabCon is dead. That's just nonsense, and I have little doubt that you know it. That right-wing trait of yours that I spotted months ago is coming to fore.
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Post by Dogburger on Dec 8, 2023 6:28:22 GMT
The current turmoil in the Tory party has been a long time comming. Ever since Cameron was prime minister the party has been slowly moving to the centre. But all is not lost, the Tories can still win the next election largely because Starmer and Labour are so mind numbingly uninspiring. Indeed Starmer is the Tories biggest asset, if only they could get their act together. Labour aren't ahead in the polls because they are any good, they are ahead in the polls because the Tories, led by centrist/globalist Sunak, are so bad. Sunak doesn't seem to understand that people are crying out for a proper centre right Conservative party who puts Britain and British people first, and believe me a lot of erstwhile Labour voters in red wall constituencies who voted for Boris want that too. Dominic Comming perhaps?? Cameron pulled the Tories back towards electability. He was a very good communicator. It seems perverse for you to use him, who get elected after years out of power, to support an argument that the Tories should shift way off their normal ground over to being effectively subsumed by UKIP. It seems the Tory big church walls are imploding. Those who vote One Nation Tory will not support populism and those who advocate populism will not tolerate even a sniff of one nationism. Something has to give. The committee will do the numbers . Getting behind Sunak will disenfranchise much of the growing right within the party and add little to the vote that is seeing a swing toward Labour . Supporting the populist right would give the party some momentum ,what they lose from the one nation tory vote they will gain ten fold (IMO) from those on the right who are politically homeless . A Sunak led party has no chance of winning a GE ,a party led by a populist with populist policies might just turn the tide for them .
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Dec 8, 2023 7:30:35 GMT
Dominic Comming perhaps?? Cameron pulled the Tories back towards electability. He was a very good communicator. It seems perverse for you to use him, who get elected after years out of power, to support an argument that the Tories should shift way off their normal ground over to being effectively subsumed by UKIP. It seems the Tory big church walls are imploding. Those who vote One Nation Tory will not support populism and those who advocate populism will not tolerate even a sniff of one nationism. Something has to give. The committee will do the numbers . Getting behind Sunak will disenfranchise much of the growing right within the party and add little to the vote that is seeing a swing toward Labour . Supporting the populist right would give the party some momentum ,what they lose from the one nation tory vote they will gain ten fold (IMO) from those on the right who are politically homeless . A Sunak led party has no chance of winning a GE ,a party led by a populist with populist policies might just turn the tide for them . Spot on. With Sunak at the helm, I and many like me will vote Reform. Yes, I know that they won't get anywhere but it's a protest vote with a strong message. And at this stage I see little risk in it since there is no functional difference between Labour and the Tories anyway. But, if the Tories were to install an actual Tory as leader then that might change.
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Post by dappy on Dec 8, 2023 9:37:45 GMT
The numbers don’t stack up though. The populist party Reform gets 7 or 8 per cent in most polls. If the Tory populists won their civil war and took charge it’s likely that those votes would go Tory and Reform cease to be. But how many of the 25% or so that currently vote Tory are one nationers and those votes would be lost. The history of Truss showed Tory support collapsing.
And why would One Nation MPs stand by and let the populists take over. They presumably believe that One Nation Toryism is the best model for party and country but must presumably know that once they hand the party over they may never get it back.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2023 11:09:33 GMT
The One Nation MPs seem to be globalists. That's a huge nation.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 8, 2023 11:17:40 GMT
The numbers don’t stack up though. The populist party Reform gets 7 or 8 per cent in most polls. If the Tory populists won their civil war and took charge it’s likely that those votes would go Tory and Reform cease to be. But how many of the 25% or so that currently vote Tory are one nationers and those votes would be lost. The history of Truss showed Tory support collapsing. And why would One Nation MPs stand by and let the populists take over. They presumably believe that One Nation Toryism is the best model for party and country but must presumably know that once they hand the party over they may never get it back. This is it, become like Ukip and you get Ukip election results.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 8, 2023 11:43:59 GMT
The One Nation MPs seem to be globalists. That's a huge nation. In a nutshell, yes.
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 8, 2023 12:08:03 GMT
The numbers don’t stack up though. The populist party Reform gets 7 or 8 per cent in most polls. If the Tory populists won their civil war and took charge it’s likely that those votes would go Tory and Reform cease to be. But how many of the 25% or so that currently vote Tory are one nationers and those votes would be lost. The history of Truss showed Tory support collapsing. And why would One Nation MPs stand by and let the populists take over. They presumably believe that One Nation Toryism is the best model for party and country but must presumably know that once they hand the party over they may never get it back. This is it, become like Ukip and you get Ukip election results. UKIP/Brexit Party were the largest party in the 2014 and 2019 euro elections - with a much higher share of the vote than the Tories are getting now.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 8, 2023 12:34:23 GMT
This is it, become like Ukip and you get Ukip election results. UKIP/Brexit Party were the largest party in the 2014 and 2019 euro elections - with a much higher share of the vote than the Tories are getting now. And in GEs?
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Post by dappy on Dec 8, 2023 12:36:06 GMT
But not in general elections................
It does feel like the next election is likely lost and the Tories then need to have their civil war which will likely lead to much of either the populist wing leaving to join a Reform based party or much of the one nation wing leaving but who knows where to.
The question is what state will the Tory party be in by then. Sunak is uncomfortably trying to straddle the two, I think it unlikely the One Nationers will let it go to the populists without a fight, the populists seem in no mood to keep quiet to get the best result at the election and fight afterwards. Current projections from polls have the Tories down at 75 seats. We will assume the polls will tighten before then and they will get high 100s maybe 200 but is a full scale Canada meltdown also possible
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Post by Montegriffo on Dec 8, 2023 12:39:55 GMT
The One Nation MPs seem to be globalists. That's a huge nation. So they are true Thatcherites?
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Post by Cartertonian on Dec 8, 2023 15:07:06 GMT
I don't think One Nation Tories are globalists. They're simply non-isolationist.
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