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Post by dappy on Dec 6, 2023 23:17:41 GMT
You didn’t answer the quesrion
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Post by see2 on Dec 7, 2023 0:30:18 GMT
You seem to be getting more confused and more at odds with reality. Do you believe that remain a substantial number of people who would vote Tory if they are within tangential distance of “one nation” but wouldn’t do so if they were full on “populist” We currently have a 'one nation' Tory as PM - how is he doing?. What you seem to be missing (perhaps deliberately) is that a 'one nation' Tory Party does not attract support from nominally Labour or LibDem voters but does repel people who are looking for a conservative government. We have seen it time and again - when the Tory party refuses to be conservative their core vote stays at home and sits on their hands. The truth is that when the Conservative party screws things up they (only) sometimes lose office. Your right-wing horror show is only wanted when the electorate can be misled into it, AKA 1979. Your moderate Conservative voters at the moment do see the social element which the government have had very little choice of because of circumstances. But they also see the complete balls up by the government in terms of dealing with their responsibility to govern effectively. The 'away with the Fairies' Boris didn't help. |
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Post by Cartertonian on Dec 7, 2023 8:14:05 GMT
The keyword there is 'few'.
By what I'm taking to be your definition of 'conservative', in my view there are few of what you would call genuine conservatives in the electorate. When the general election comes, I expect to see Reform do well, as what you call genuine conservatives abandon their party for not being sufficiently right-wing, but I doubt they will poll more than 20% in total, splitting the wider 'conservative' vote and securing victory for Labour.
Braverman and Jenrick will then take over the remnant Tory party, along with Rees-Mogg, Gullis, 30p Lee, et al and lurch even further right, marginalising themselves in the process.
The people I feel sorry for are what I would call the genuine conservatives. Compassionate, intelligent, One Nation Tories who appreciate that to govern a country you are obligated to govern for all its people, not just a vocal, fringe minority. I appreciate more than most that our own, personal view of the world is shaped and influenced by the people and circumstances around us. With that disclaimer, my own observation is that I know far more Tory voters than I do Labour or Lib Dem voters in my personal and professional life and all of them think that the right of their own party are reprehensible and immoral. They may well not vote, come election day, but not because the Tories are not right wing enough.
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Post by dappy on Dec 7, 2023 9:46:50 GMT
It does feel that the current coalition between "one nation" Tories and "populist" Tories cannot be held together for too much longer. Sunak is trying to sit uncomfortably between them but the populist side in particular are in no mood to compromise. It does feel unlikely that Sunak can limp through this way for another year. Either he has to choose a side and dare the other side to bring him down (they probably would) or it feels like an early election possibly even as early as February, but then what platform do the Tories put forward and how would any voter believe that that is what they would seek to deliver in office. it really is an utter shitshow.
Once in opposition, there should be time for the Tories to decide which faction is going to get the rump of the Tory party. In some senses it makes more sense for the One Nationers to be the Tories and the populists join up with reform to be create that alternative. The residual brand is almost certainly too valuable for that to happen easily. Which way it goes may well depend on the vagueries of which Tories happen to survive the election cull and what balance of power there then is post election in the party. Feels then there is quite an incentive for Reform not in the end to stand against "Populist Tories" to try to get that balance of power.
interesting times ahead while "the right" sort themselves out. Meanwhile hopefully Labour can do a half decent job sorting out the mess the country has been left in by these Tory squabbles. So much to do though. It will be a really tough job.
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Post by Fairsociety on Dec 7, 2023 9:47:30 GMT
The Tories aren't listening to the people, and it's the people who put them in power, we aren't interested in a few Tory MPs stamping their feet, all they have to do is deliver what the people are asking, no demanding.... and if they can't do that well they deserve to lose the next GE.
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Post by dappy on Dec 7, 2023 9:52:34 GMT
Th people seem to be demanding a Labour government if you believe the polls. Are you suggesting the Tories should just step down?
Or more likely are you pretending "the people" all think how you do?
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Post by johnofgwent on Dec 7, 2023 9:56:18 GMT
The keyword there is 'few'. By what I'm taking to be your definition of 'conservative', in my view there are few of what you would call genuine conservatives in the electorate. When the general election comes, I expect to see Reform do well, as what you call genuine conservatives abandon their party for not being sufficiently right-wing, but I doubt they will poll more than 20% in total, splitting the wider 'conservative' vote and securing victory for Labour. Braverman and Jenrick will then take over the remnant Tory party, along with Rees-Mogg, Gullis, 30p Lee, et al and lurch even further right, marginalising themselves in the process. The people I feel sorry for are what I would call the genuine conservatives. Compassionate, intelligent, One Nation Tories who appreciate that to govern a country you are obligated to govern for all its people, not just a vocal, fringe minority. I appreciate more than most that our own, personal view of the world is shaped and influenced by the people and circumstances around us. With that disclaimer, my own observation is that I know far more Tory voters than I do Labour or Lib Dem voters in my personal and professional life and all of them think that the right of their own party are reprehensible and immoral. They may well not vote, come election day, but not because the Tories are not right wing enough. i’ll be honest here. I always considered myself the ordinary bloke in the street using my skills to make the sort of money and get the sort of lifestyle my dad was promised would be his, and i cannot recall a single politician over the past fifty years actively working to improve MY situation. Indeed most on both sides seem to think i should be bled dry to fund the lazy, the entitled and the third world invader. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 7, 2023 9:56:34 GMT
The keyword there is 'few'.
By what I'm taking to be your definition of 'conservative', in my view there are few of what you would call genuine conservatives in the electorate. When the general election comes, I expect to see Reform do well, as what you call genuine conservatives abandon their party for not being sufficiently right-wing, but I doubt they will poll more than 20% in total, splitting the wider 'conservative' vote and securing victory for Labour. Braverman and Jenrick will then take over the remnant Tory party, along with Rees-Mogg, Gullis, 30p Lee, et al and lurch even further right, marginalising themselves in the process. The people I feel sorry for are what I would call the genuine conservatives. Compassionate, intelligent, One Nation Tories who appreciate that to govern a country you are obligated to govern for all its people, not just a vocal, fringe minority. I appreciate more than most that our own, personal view of the world is shaped and influenced by the people and circumstances around us. With that disclaimer, my own observation is that I know far more Tory voters than I do Labour or Lib Dem voters in my personal and professional life and all of them think that the right of their own party are reprehensible and immoral. They may well not vote, come election day, but not because the Tories are not right wing enough. Well I would just point out that the 'few' gave Johnson (an uber populist) a landslide majority - Sunak (the one-nation adult in the room) couldn't even win an election to become leader of his own party. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Dec 7, 2023 10:01:02 GMT
Th people seem to be demanding a Labour government if you believe the polls. Are you suggesting the Tories should just step down? Or more likely are you pretending "the people" all think how you do? I'm suggesting they stop arguing and sort this totally unacceptable illegal boat people invasion.
It is a security risk for everyone, including you. They are being blocked by the lefty loons, who clearly don't give a toss for the safety of the people, all they are interested in is appeasing the woke snowflakes, this issue is not a political football, it's a very serious matter, one that requires cross-party full cooperation and support, and if they don't give it none of them deserve votes.
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Post by dappy on Dec 7, 2023 10:14:11 GMT
I agree we need a sensible asylum system although I don't see it as an overly important issue. But lets not divert this thread towards yet another go-around on asylum. Realistically there isn't even agreement in the governing party on what to do as warring tribes use it as a tool towards their greater ambitions. The idea that it would be possible to find cross party consensus is fanciful. This issue as with so many that need resolving is very likely to fall into the lap of the incoming Labour government.
This thread though is about the future of the Conservative party and how they navigate themselves through the period until the next election after which perhaps they can work out what they want it to be.
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Post by Cartertonian on Dec 7, 2023 10:20:05 GMT
Your honesty is welcome, and hits on an important issue. Most of us think we're 'the ordinary bloke in the street'. That leads us to believe that our personal views are held by a majority. I'm not sure that's true - for myself as much as anyone else. That's why I constantly challenge and question my own opinions.
I too aspired to the sort of lifestyle my dad was promised...and enjoyed. When he retired from the police aged 53 in 1981, he was able to buy our house outright (4-bed detached, garage and garden) and live on his pension, whereas when I retired from the Armed Forces last year, at equivalent rank, pay and pension as my late father, all I could afford was a 10% deposit on such a property and will have to continue working full-time until I'm 67. Twenty-nine of the intervening forty-two years have been under Tory rule and I hardly think one can attribute this shocking lowering in quality of life to thirteen years of Labour.
In terms of challenging and questioning my own opinions, since I first joined this particular online community in 2008, I have repeatedly sought to establish how conservatism could work. Unfortunately, the adversarial nature of debate here and elsewhere offers no answers, as it is consumed with everything that is perceived as bad about the political alternative(s), without clearly articulating what is good about conservatism.
Personally, I don't think anyone should be 'bled dry to fund the lazy, the entitled and the third world invader', but where we differ is in the solution to that problem, not the existence of the problem itself.
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Post by Fairsociety on Dec 7, 2023 10:26:08 GMT
I agree we need a sensible asylum system although I don't see it as an overly important issue. But lets not divert this thread towards yet another go-around on asylum. Realistically there isn't even agreement in the governing party on what to do as warring tribes use it as a tool towards their greater ambitions. The idea that it would be possible to find cross party consensus is fanciful. This issue as with so many that need resolving is very likely to fall into the lap of the incoming Labour government. This thread though is about the future of the Conservative party and how they navigate themselves through the period until the next election after which perhaps they can work out what they want it to be. I am aware of what the thread is about, hence the reason I've given why the Conservatives have come to this point, this one issue alone has brought about the thread title. The backbench backstabbers who I bet are mainly remainers, are controlling the Tory party. |
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Post by see2 on Dec 7, 2023 10:28:06 GMT
The keyword there is 'few'.
By what I'm taking to be your definition of 'conservative', in my view there are few of what you would call genuine conservatives in the electorate. When the general election comes, I expect to see Reform do well, as what you call genuine conservatives abandon their party for not being sufficiently right-wing, but I doubt they will poll more than 20% in total, splitting the wider 'conservative' vote and securing victory for Labour. Braverman and Jenrick will then take over the remnant Tory party, along with Rees-Mogg, Gullis, 30p Lee, et al and lurch even further right, marginalising themselves in the process. The people I feel sorry for are what I would call the genuine conservatives. Compassionate, intelligent, One Nation Tories who appreciate that to govern a country you are obligated to govern for all its people, not just a vocal, fringe minority. I appreciate more than most that our own, personal view of the world is shaped and influenced by the people and circumstances around us. With that disclaimer, my own observation is that I know far more Tory voters than I do Labour or Lib Dem voters in my personal and professional life and all of them think that the right of their own party are reprehensible and immoral. They may well not vote, come election day, but not because the Tories are not right wing enough. Well I would just point out that the 'few' gave Johnson (an uber populist) a landslide majority - Sunak (the one-nation adult in the room) couldn't even win an election to become leader of his own party. Johnson was the joker in the pack, that was his attraction. He failed to govern effectively. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Dec 7, 2023 10:35:44 GMT
Well I would just point out that the 'few' gave Johnson (an uber populist) a landslide majority - Sunak (the one-nation adult in the room) couldn't even win an election to become leader of his own party. Johnson was the joker in the pack, that was his attraction. He failed to govern effectively. And of course Starmer is in full total control of his party, half of them want him kicked out because he wont back a terrorist group, that says all you need to know about Labour and how effectively they will govern, they are already in a mess. |
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 7, 2023 14:54:16 GMT
The current turmoil in the Tory party has been a long time comming. Ever since Cameron was prime minister the party has been slowly moving to the centre. But all is not lost, the Tories can still win the next election largely because Starmer and Labour are so mind numbingly uninspiring. Indeed Starmer is the Tories biggest asset, if only they could get their act together. Labour aren't ahead in the polls because they are any good, they are ahead in the polls because the Tories, led by centrist/globalist Sunak, are so bad. Sunak doesn't seem to understand that people are crying out for a proper centre right Conservative party who puts Britain and British people first, and believe me a lot of erstwhile Labour voters in red wall constituencies who voted for Boris want that too.
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