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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2023 15:44:04 GMT
No Borders is not specifically a refugee group. Extending the EU to a multitude of members was not a refugee situation, refusing to limit the influx from new members was not a refugee decision. Changing the demographics at such levels is not a refugee decision. I see. So a group of people got together in a room and decided to wipe out the 'ethnic English', then? Well we do know that is broadly what happened with the Jews, why is it such a stretch to believe it of any other group.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 9, 2023 15:48:27 GMT
What was that we heard during the Blairite years about importing diversity in order 'to rub the Right's nose in it'?
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Post by Orac on Dec 9, 2023 15:48:34 GMT
Obviously, if the UK government has had long term genocidal policies, those policies must be legal (ie backed by the courts) And no, the UK government is separate from the courts. It's called the separation of powers. You might have noticed that the courts frequently intervene to forestall the government. Re -read what i wrote.. IF the UK government has had long term genocidal policies, those policies must be legal (ie backed by the courts) This is true regardless of any notional or real separation (or just about anything else) Regardless, you can use common sense to create an inference here. If someone celebrates reducing numbers and supports actions likely to reduce numbers, their intent very likely includes reducing numbers.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2023 15:49:34 GMT
When genocides occur the subject population rarely have power to take to court, to stop it and find that laws, justice and the establishment are stacked against them. You seem to be in paid employ to disrupt and ridicule any thread that smacks of such discussions. As I said, it's difficult to counter absurdity without resorting to absurdism. You have brought the discussion to a surreal place with what can only be described as an odd-ball conspiracy theory. It is not difficult to engage in debate at all, what seems difficult is asking cogent questions without using language that ridicules and belittles the points made. It is a style that may be effective at times but it is noticeable as a style. Conspiracy theories do not require evidence; suspicions of conspiracies occurring are based on the evidence that exists and for which there seems little rational explanation other than some degree of planning.
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Post by sheepy on Dec 9, 2023 15:52:38 GMT
No Borders is not specifically a refugee group. Extending the EU to a multitude of members was not a refugee situation, refusing to limit the influx from new members was not a refugee decision. Changing the demographics at such levels is not a refugee decision. I see. So a group of people got together in a room and decided to wipe out the 'ethnic English', then? No they decided the communists were waving their power around collasping companies and threatening the status quo. so it must have been thought the better option was shut the unions power base down put the commies out of work and import those who were willing to work under the conditions they were given. Call it multiculturalism and change the way Britian was run remove the industrial base and put the bankers in charge, being the good conservatives they are. Or something like that.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2023 16:04:26 GMT
As I said, it's difficult to counter absurdity without resorting to absurdism. You have brought the discussion to a surreal place with what can only be described as an odd-ball conspiracy theory. It is not difficult to engage in debate at all, what seems difficult is asking cogent questions without using language that ridicules and belittles the points made. It is a style that may be effective at times but it is noticeable as a style. Conspiracy theories do not require evidence; suspicions of conspiracies occurring are based on the evidence that exists and for which there seems little rational explanation other than some degree of planning. Sandy, the proposition is just ridiculous. It's impossible not to ridicule it. I mean, really? A group of people got together and decided to wipe out the 'ethnic English'?!!!
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2023 16:07:34 GMT
And no, the UK government is separate from the courts. It's called the separation of powers. You might have noticed that the courts frequently intervene to forestall the government. IF the UK government has had long term genocidal policies, those policies must be legal (ie backed by the courts) Sorry, I just can't take that seriously. You really believe there was a cabinet meeting where the genocide of the 'ethnic English' was discussed?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2023 16:22:53 GMT
It is not difficult to engage in debate at all, what seems difficult is asking cogent questions without using language that ridicules and belittles the points made. It is a style that may be effective at times but it is noticeable as a style. Conspiracy theories do not require evidence; suspicions of conspiracies occurring are based on the evidence that exists and for which there seems little rational explanation other than some degree of planning. Sandy, the proposition is just ridiculous. It's impossible not to ridicule it. I mean, really? A group of people got together and decided to wipe out the 'ethnic English'?!!! Why is it absurd? It happened with the Jews where the actual final solution was discussed round a table by a group of people. It happened with the Armenians where Turkey sat round and discussed a policy, it happened with the Cultural revolution where a group sat round and discussed what to do, it happened in Vietnam where war was engaged on frequent false premises by the US government Stalin was pretty adept at removing ethnic groups wholesale. All these things are historical fact. Remember no one has said that the English were specifically targeted for demographic enswampment (is that a word) it was just a happy outcome but large scale immigration into the West was seen as a boon to economies and to dilute populations to make wars less likely and populations easier to control in some way. So demographic change was certainly in my view a plan as we can see from all the diversity and inclusion pressures and laws. As I said there may have been sound moral reasons in teh eyes of some for why such actions were taken but realistically the only consideration that should have carried any weight was the actual democratic wishes of the electorate, and that just got in the way. I am afraid the EU was a manifestation of those overriding desires to control in ostensibly paternal ways.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2023 16:33:45 GMT
Sandy, the proposition is just ridiculous. It's impossible not to ridicule it. I mean, really? A group of people got together and decided to wipe out the 'ethnic English'?!!! Why is it absurd? It happened with the Jews where the actual final solution was discussed round a table by a group of people. It happened with the Armenians where Turkey sat round and discussed a policy, it happened with the Cultural revolution where a group sat round and discussed what to do, it happened in Vietnam where war was engaged on frequent false premises by the US government Stalin was pretty adept at removing ethnic groups wholesale. All these things are historical fact. Remember no one has said that the English were specifically targeted for demographic enswampment (is that a word) it was just a happy outcome but large scale immigration into the West was seen as a boon to economies and to dilute populations to make wars less likely and populations easier to control in some way. So demographic change was certainly in my view a plan as we can see from all the diversity and inclusion pressures and laws. As I said there may have been sound moral reasons in teh eyes of some for why such actions were taken but realistically the only consideration that should have carried any weight was the actual democratic wishes of the electorate, and that just got in the way. I am afraid the EU was a manifestation of those overriding desires to control in ostensibly paternal ways. It's a crackpot theory. That's the best that can be said about it. The two situations you described (Armenians and Jews) are entirely different. They're the exact opposite of what you claim is happening. They would only be relevant comparators if Hitler had decided that he wanted to eradicate the German people and replace them with Jews, or if the Turks had wanted to eradicate Turks and replace them with Armenians.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2023 16:40:36 GMT
Why is it absurd? It happened with the Jews where the actual final solution was discussed round a table by a group of people. It happened with the Armenians where Turkey sat round and discussed a policy, it happened with the Cultural revolution where a group sat round and discussed what to do, it happened in Vietnam where war was engaged on frequent false premises by the US government Stalin was pretty adept at removing ethnic groups wholesale. All these things are historical fact. Remember no one has said that the English were specifically targeted for demographic enswampment (is that a word) it was just a happy outcome but large scale immigration into the West was seen as a boon to economies and to dilute populations to make wars less likely and populations easier to control in some way. So demographic change was certainly in my view a plan as we can see from all the diversity and inclusion pressures and laws. As I said there may have been sound moral reasons in teh eyes of some for why such actions were taken but realistically the only consideration that should have carried any weight was the actual democratic wishes of the electorate, and that just got in the way. I am afraid the EU was a manifestation of those overriding desires to control in ostensibly paternal ways. It's a crackpot theory. That's the best that can be said about it. The two situations you described (Armenians and Jews) are entirely different. They're the exact opposite of what you claim is happening. They would only be relevant comparators if Hitler had decided that he wanted to eradicate the German people and replace them with Jews, or if the Turks had wanted to eradicate Turks and replace them with Armenians. It is not the opposite it is exactly that that people sat in a room and discussed eradicating whole populations You accept that that is what happened in all the above examples yet somehow some group sitting around saying let us swamp the English with mass migration and see if we can breed them out is in your view an absurd notion. The point is history shows us that people conspiring in such a way is not absurd it is quite commonplace.
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2023 16:44:09 GMT
It's a crackpot theory. That's the best that can be said about it. The two situations you described (Armenians and Jews) are entirely different. They're the exact opposite of what you claim is happening. They would only be relevant comparators if Hitler had decided that he wanted to eradicate the German people and replace them with Jews, or if the Turks had wanted to eradicate Turks and replace them with Armenians. It is not the opposite it is exactly that that people sat in a room and discussed eradicating whole populations You accept that that is what happened in all the above examples yet somehow some group sitting around saying let us swamp the English with mass migration and see if we can breed them out is in your view an absurd notion. The point is history shows us that people conspiring in such a way is not absurd it is quite commonplace. No, I don't find ridiculous the idea that there might be other people of a crackpot disposition out there. There could very well be some group of misfits somewhere who would like nothing better than to see the 'ethnic English' genocidally disposed of. The world is full of strange people. But the idea that the Cabinet (or any other organ of state) sat around discussing plans to eradicate the 'ethnic English'?!!! That's just a nutjob conspiracy theory.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2023 16:55:15 GMT
It is not the opposite it is exactly that that people sat in a room and discussed eradicating whole populations You accept that that is what happened in all the above examples yet somehow some group sitting around saying let us swamp the English with mass migration and see if we can breed them out is in your view an absurd notion. The point is history shows us that people conspiring in such a way is not absurd it is quite commonplace. No, I don't find the idea that there might other people of a crackpot disposition out there. There could very well be some group of misfits somewhere who would like nothing better than that. The world is full of strange people. But the idea that the Cabinet sat around discussing plans to eradicate the 'ethnic English'?!!! That's just a nutjob conspiracy theory. Now where did I say 'the cabinet'. The whole point is that any group who consider this is a group with some form of power and influence and can use all sorts of pressure, coercion and manipulation to achieve their ends. Quite often it is the incontestable moral position of the argument that swings things their way. Fairness, compassion, sympathy, helping others, lucky birth are all the watchwords of how to have their way. Pressure groups are formed to help refugees and extend compassion to those less fortunate and all works well for those whose motives may not be as morally sound as they would have us believe. They co-opt many well meaning people to their causes whose moral positions are sound yet they are being used. What is clear the English are being overwhelmed quite quickly in their own homeland despite stating quite clearly democratically that is not what they want. Is there another explanation?
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Post by Einhorn on Dec 9, 2023 17:03:01 GMT
No, I don't find the idea that there might other people of a crackpot disposition out there. There could very well be some group of misfits somewhere who would like nothing better than that. The world is full of strange people. But the idea that the Cabinet sat around discussing plans to eradicate the 'ethnic English'?!!! That's just a nutjob conspiracy theory. Now where did I say 'the cabinet'. The whole point is that any group who consider this is a group with some form of power and influence and can use all sorts of pressure, coercion and manipulation to achieve their ends. Quite often it is the incontestable moral position of the argument that swings things their way. Fairness, compassion, sympathy, helping others, lucky birth are all the watchwords of how to have their way. Pressure groups are formed to help refugees and extend compassion to those less fortunate and all works well for those whose motives may not be as morally sound as they would have us believe. They co-opt many well meaning people to their causes whose moral positions are sound yet they are being used. What is clear the English are being overwhelmed quite quickly in their own homeland despite stating quite clearly democratically that is not what they want. Is there another explanation? Oh, so they hide behind 'humanitarian' and 'economic' motives, then? Why can't their motives just be humanitarian or economic? I mean, that's what they say their motives are, don't they? You can probably find reams of statements from these groups to that effect. But can you find a single statement that says that genocide is their objective? No? So, what is the basis for the crackpot claim that genocide is the objective?
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Post by sandypine on Dec 9, 2023 17:21:17 GMT
Now where did I say 'the cabinet'. The whole point is that any group who consider this is a group with some form of power and influence and can use all sorts of pressure, coercion and manipulation to achieve their ends. Quite often it is the incontestable moral position of the argument that swings things their way. Fairness, compassion, sympathy, helping others, lucky birth are all the watchwords of how to have their way. Pressure groups are formed to help refugees and extend compassion to those less fortunate and all works well for those whose motives may not be as morally sound as they would have us believe. They co-opt many well meaning people to their causes whose moral positions are sound yet they are being used. What is clear the English are being overwhelmed quite quickly in their own homeland despite stating quite clearly democratically that is not what they want. Is there another explanation? Oh, so they hide behind 'humanitarian' and 'economic' motives, then? Why can't their motives just be humanitarian or economic? I mean, that's what they say their motives are, don't they? You can probably find reams of statements from these groups to that effect. But can you find a single statement that says that genocide is their objective? No? So, what is the basis for the crackpot claim that genocide is the objective? Becasue there is irrefutable evidence that the disappearance of the English people from their historic homeland as a majority is a fact not too far distant from being realised. This may be down to all sorts of other factors but it is still obvious that immigration levels are significantly against their wishes and the notion is fairly widespread from ethnic minorities is 'how does it feel'? I could add whitey there if you like. Also the laws are made that mandates diversity and inclusion as diversity is being systematically increased. Another law that bases its existence on 'fairness' and 'equality' whilst doing exactly the opposite.
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Post by Bentley on Dec 9, 2023 17:22:01 GMT
It has to be intentionally absurd to be absurd darling ? Once again, I have no idea what you're talking about. You said last night that you don't believe genocide is occurring. Have you changed your mind again? Where did I specifically say that genocide was not occurring? What have I changed my mind about ?
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