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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 6, 2023 13:27:56 GMT
Perhaps you can open a new thread in the open forum explaining how you came to the conclusion that Sandy and I would 'happily identify as white supremacists'.
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Post by dappy on Dec 6, 2023 13:34:16 GMT
It would be based on your posting history, Dan. Its the only way I know you (as far as I know). How could it be anything else? I am surprised frankly given the comments you regularly make that you do not self identify in that way. But again, if that is not the case, surprised as I may be, I can only humbly apologise for the pain and hurt it must have caused you. Personal "spats" are very dull for others, so while I imagine you are free to open up whatever threads you desire, I suggest we leave it there.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 6, 2023 13:39:46 GMT
There doesn't need to be a personal 'spat' just an explanation from you about what you believe what a white supremacist is and why you believe Sandy and I fit your template.
If it makes it easier for you to articulate focus just on my posting history and leave Sandy out of it (unless he wants to participate of course).
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Post by sandypine on Dec 6, 2023 13:45:21 GMT
I am Scots, but if ethnic Scots with Scottish heritage say I am not, and they do exist, then I would not be ethnically Scots. It is all a matter of individual AND group perceptions. So you are Scots despite not being ethnically Scottish? But I can't be English despite not being ethnically English? I think you misunderstood, I said if the Scots with Scottish heritage said I am not ethnic Scots then I am not ethnic Scots as my definition based on the reasons I have given at length requires acceptance of what one is by two parties, the individual and others of the same ethnicity. Just a thought if you were born in Australia you would be an Australian National but you would not be ethnic aborigine even if you were born round a camp fire and involved yourself in the culture from birth. That of course would not be fair but it would be true. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 6, 2023 13:47:06 GMT
There doesn't need to be a personal 'spat' just an explanation from you about what you believe what a white supremacist is and why you believe Sandy and I fit your template. If it makes it easier for you to articulate focus just on my posting history and leave Sandy out of it (unless he wants to participate of course). Currently I am happy to defer to you Dan but if I see something I strongly disagree with of course I reserve the right to interject, politely of course. |
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Post by bancroft on Dec 6, 2023 14:30:50 GMT
If we go back into Europe we should push for an English parliament and I would say to only include those whose parents were born in the UK.
Then the fireworks would start..........
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 6, 2023 20:37:04 GMT
So you are Scots despite not being ethnically Scottish? But I can't be English despite not being ethnically English? I think you misunderstood, I said if the Scots with Scottish heritage said I am not ethnic Scots then I am not ethnic Scots as my definition based on the reasons I have given at length requires acceptance of what one is by two parties, the individual and others of the same ethnicity. Just a thought if you were born in Australia you would be an Australian National but you would not be ethnic aborigine even if you were born round a camp fire and involved yourself in the culture from birth. That of course would not be fair but it would be true. Again, I've acknowledged I'm not ethnic English, just as you are not ethnic Scots. So why is it you can still be Scottish but I can't be English? And I ask again, how do you think people would react if I went marching into your local and started telling everyone in my English accent who could and couldn't call themselves Scottish? Then perhaps reflect how that looks from the other side. |
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Post by dodgydave on Dec 7, 2023 3:51:54 GMT
Let's face it, nobody identifies as British other than in their passports. We are English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish.
What makes you English for example, is not that you were born in England. It is that you grew up in an English town / city. Local culture, traditions, and accents are far more powerful on the formation of identity, than vague nationwide ones.
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Post by Cartertonian on Dec 7, 2023 8:29:56 GMT
Let's face it, nobody identifies as British other than in their passports. We are English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish. What makes you English for example, is not that you were born in England. It is that you grew up in an English town / city. Local culture, traditions, and accents are far more powerful on the formation of identity, than vague nationwide ones. Err... I spent most of my adult working life in the British Army. Not the English Army, the British Army. I have always identified as British, not least because my ancestry features all four components of these islands. Despite the pages and pages of to and fro here, I still don't know exactly what 'English' is. Even your definition is unhelpful, because England itself is culturally diverse. In the course of my military service I have served all over the country and most of England is as alien to me as any other foreign country. I feel 'at home' in North Yorkshire, but when I have lived in the West Country, the Home Counties, the Midlands or East Anglia I have felt just the same as I did when we lived in Germany - a temporary resident in a strange and unfamiliar land. |
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Post by buccaneer on Dec 7, 2023 9:50:37 GMT
Let's face it, nobody identifies as British other than in their passports. We are English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish. What makes you English for example, is not that you were born in England. It is that you grew up in an English town / city. Local culture, traditions, and accents are far more powerful on the formation of identity, than vague nationwide ones. Err... I spent most of my adult working life in the British Army. Not the English Army, the British Army. I have always identified as British, not least because my ancestry features all four components of these islands. Despite the pages and pages of to and fro here, I still don't know exactly what 'English' is. Even your definition is unhelpful, because England itself is culturally diverse. In the course of my military service I have served all over the country and most of England is as alien to me as any other foreign country. I feel 'at home' in North Yorkshire, but when I have lived in the West Country, the Home Counties, the Midlands or East Anglia I have felt just the same as I did when we lived in Germany - a temporary resident in a strange and unfamiliar land. Do you 'know' what Scottish is? |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 10:06:58 GMT
I think you misunderstood, I said if the Scots with Scottish heritage said I am not ethnic Scots then I am not ethnic Scots as my definition based on the reasons I have given at length requires acceptance of what one is by two parties, the individual and others of the same ethnicity. Just a thought if you were born in Australia you would be an Australian National but you would not be ethnic aborigine even if you were born round a camp fire and involved yourself in the culture from birth. That of course would not be fair but it would be true. Again, I've acknowledged I'm not ethnic English, just as you are not ethnic Scots. So why is it you can still be Scottish but I can't be English? And I ask again, how do you think people would react if I went marching into your local and started telling everyone in my English accent who could and couldn't call themselves Scottish? Then perhaps reflect how that looks from the other side. Because at the moment it is the ethnic English that are specifically under attack as not existing. To be honest if there was no campaign by the likes of Lammy to denigrate the English culture and to overwhelm it with English Nationals then there would not be a problem, you could happily be English without a care in the world and no one would give a fig. However that is not the case there is a campaign to belittle, change and revise English history and culture to the detriment of 'the English' from whom some can remove themselves by being ethnic minorities. You are caught in the middle but I suggest your beef would be better placed against those who have initiated and continued the campaign as opposed to those who see their own heritage under direct attack. To be clear I am viewing this from the outside as a Scot and anyone saying it is not a concerted campaign have no eyes or ears. An example, my wife is English, we live in Scotland, a few years back she had to fill in a question on a medical form to define her ethnicity. There was a multitude of choices revolving around mixes of British, Welsh, Scots, white, black, Asian. There was no English the only box she could tick was 'other British'. They had to delay the out patient procedure till her blood pressure came down. That was relegating some 60% of the British population to also rans. It is no different to calling the Australian Aborigines 'other Australians'. I believe they have changed that paper now |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 7, 2023 10:28:31 GMT
Again, I've acknowledged I'm not ethnic English, just as you are not ethnic Scots. So why is it you can still be Scottish but I can't be English? And I ask again, how do you think people would react if I went marching into your local and started telling everyone in my English accent who could and couldn't call themselves Scottish? Then perhaps reflect how that looks from the other side. Because at the moment it is the ethnic English that are specifically under attack as not existing. To be honest if there was no campaign by the likes of Lammy to denigrate the English culture and to overwhelm it with English Nationals then there would not be a problem, you could happily be English without a care in the world and no one would give a fig. However that is not the case there is a campaign to belittle, change and revise English history and culture to the detriment of 'the English' from whom some can remove themselves by being ethnic minorities. You are caught in the middle but I suggest your beef would be better placed against those who have initiated and continued the campaign as opposed to those who see their own heritage under direct attack. To be clear I am viewing this from the outside as a Scot and anyone saying it is not a concerted campaign have no eyes or ears. An example, my wife is English, we live in Scotland, a few years back she had to fill in a question on a medical form to define her ethnicity. There was a multitude of choices revolving around mixes of British, Welsh, Scots, white, black, Asian. There was no English the only box she could tick was 'other British'. They had to delay the out patient procedure till her blood pressure came down. That was relegating some 60% of the British population to also rans. It is no different to calling the Australian Aborigines 'other Australians'. I believe they have changed that paper now But it isn't the ethnic English who are under attack here. I'm under attack from you and others attempting to deny me my Englishness. That's your choice, your actions, it's got nothing to do with anyone else. Me and mine have done nothing to you but you go out of your way to pick a fight with us because of an accident of birth. I'll ask for the third time, how do you think it would be received if I went into your local and started telling people in my English accent who could and couldn't call themselves Scottish? If you fail to answer again I'll take it as an indication on your part that you have conceded the point. |
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Post by Cartertonian on Dec 7, 2023 10:47:46 GMT
I'm not sure I do. Nor Welsh or Irish. I know what the passionate nationalists in those countries characterise themselves as, just in the same way as I know how Yorkshire folk characterise themselves as 'different from' the rest of England, but I am not a nationalist in that sense. Most countries in the world have land borders (many contested), whereas we have a contiguous coastal border around our islands. My nationalism, as a former British Army officer, relates to these islands.
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 7, 2023 10:53:33 GMT
...An example, my wife is English, we live in Scotland, a few years back she had to fill in a question on a medical form to define her ethnicity. There was a multitude of choices revolving around mixes of British, Welsh, Scots, white, black, Asian. There was no English the only box she could tick was 'other British'. They had to delay the out patient procedure till her blood pressure came down. That was relegating some 60% of the British population to also rans. It is no different to calling the Australian Aborigines 'other Australians'. I believe they have changed that paper now There doesn't appear to have been much change in the official mindset regarding the status of English residents in Scotland. According to the last census they are on a par with Poles, Gypsies and Roma.
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Post by sandypine on Dec 7, 2023 11:10:39 GMT
Because at the moment it is the ethnic English that are specifically under attack as not existing. To be honest if there was no campaign by the likes of Lammy to denigrate the English culture and to overwhelm it with English Nationals then there would not be a problem, you could happily be English without a care in the world and no one would give a fig. However that is not the case there is a campaign to belittle, change and revise English history and culture to the detriment of 'the English' from whom some can remove themselves by being ethnic minorities. You are caught in the middle but I suggest your beef would be better placed against those who have initiated and continued the campaign as opposed to those who see their own heritage under direct attack. To be clear I am viewing this from the outside as a Scot and anyone saying it is not a concerted campaign have no eyes or ears. An example, my wife is English, we live in Scotland, a few years back she had to fill in a question on a medical form to define her ethnicity. There was a multitude of choices revolving around mixes of British, Welsh, Scots, white, black, Asian. There was no English the only box she could tick was 'other British'. They had to delay the out patient procedure till her blood pressure came down. That was relegating some 60% of the British population to also rans. It is no different to calling the Australian Aborigines 'other Australians'. I believe they have changed that paper now But it isn't the ethnic English who are under attack here. I'm under attack from you and others attempting to deny me my Englishness. That's your choice, your actions, it's got nothing to do with anyone else. Me and mine have done nothing to you but you go out of your way to pick a fight with us because of an accident of birth. I'll ask for the third time, how do you think it would be received if I went into your local and started telling people in my English accent who could and couldn't call themselves Scottish? If you fail to answer again I'll take it as an indication on your part that you have conceded the point. There you go you will not accept that the English are under attack yet as a group in the main that is what they feel. Any group that feels under attack is considered and sympathised with throughout the world except the English, it does not matter if some of that group think it is bunkum a goodly proportion accept it is the case. I have not said you are not anything I have said you are different from people with English Heritage as you claim Irish heritage. That is your own claim, I did not make it. To answer directly your rather fatuous query it is really irrelevant as it depends on many things. I can answer one point as regards that though there is a fairly large swathe of Scots of Irish ancestry who still regard themselves as Irish and most certainly not British. So some might say 'I never said I was Scots'. Perhaps it takes a specific living in the west of Scotland to understand some of this and it manifests itself in the football teams and how some people will not have green on the house and some will not have blue. Now this is on personal experience as I handcraft certain items and I have to have a selection of blue or green for any one item and the discrimination is openly stated. |
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