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Post by happyhornet on Dec 5, 2023 19:44:41 GMT
I've never said that I don't want there to be English people with English heritage. You're shadow boxing. I'm confident most of my compatriots would define me as English, that's certainly been my experience. What do you imagine the reaction would be if I was to start telling Scottish people who can and can't call themselves Scottish? OK then are English people with English heritage different from English people with Irish heritage and if they are not is Irish heritage in any way important that it should be mentioned? I have been over the Scottish bit and how if Scottish ethnicity depended on heritage then I would probably not be Scottish I would be more English. English people with Irish heritage and English people with English heritage have different heritages but are both English. Are you Scottish or not? |
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Post by Deleted on Dec 5, 2023 19:53:40 GMT
@ Dappy
I don't care what the Marxists who deny the existence of the ethnic English have to say. The fact that they're claiming to be offended whilst smearing other members on Mind Zone says it all.
EDIT: I see no point in pointing out Hornet's post that states "English isn't an ethnicity" yet again.
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 5, 2023 19:56:17 GMT
@ Dappy
I don't care what the Marxists who deny the existence of the ethnic English have to say. The fact that they're claiming to be offended whilst smearing other members on Mind Zone says it all. Who has denied the existence of the ethnic English? |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 5, 2023 20:03:20 GMT
@ Dappy
I don't care what the Marxists who deny the existence of the ethnic English have to say. The fact that they're claiming to be offended whilst smearing other members on Mind Zone says it all.
EDIT: I see no point in pointing out Hornet's post that states "English isn't an ethnicity" yet again.
I've never denied the existence of English ethnicity. Saying apples aren't oranges isn't denying the existence of apples. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 5, 2023 20:09:35 GMT
Noticeable that Dan and Sandy have studiously ignored the question I have asked them twice now - what rights and responsibilities should accrue to this special people whose ancestry allows them to be called English under Dan’s definition. No surprise of course they avoid answering - it’s what they do. It’s all nonsense of course. It’s just a manufactured way of creating Dans ideal - an all white group of people with some created greater rights to our country than other citizens. Well sorry Dan - you are not going to steal Englishness from me and my family or HarryHornets any more than you are going to steal Britishness. As I have said before - my wife’s mother was a refugee from wartime Germany. In my world my wife is every bit as British and English as I am. My kids are just as British and English as Dan’s or Sandy’s. If they have kids with their current partners living where they currently do , those kids will be British and English too even though 2 of 3 partners have overseas passports and 2 of 3 partners (not the same subset) do not have white skin. Dan and Sandy may reject those potential grandkids as English - well frankly who cares what a couple of old out of touch white supremacists think anyway. Who has said there are special rights and responsibilities. All that has to be done is recognise English as an ethnic group with the right to consider England their ethnic homeland, that is no different to Kurds, or the Irish, or the Native Americans, or Australian Aborigines. All of these groups are held as being native to their homeland the peculiarity is why would you wish to deny the English teh same ethnic rights that every or ethnicity claims as a right? I have made clear my take on ethnicity, you by all means can disagree but I have not talked about any form of rejection of anyone, so perhaps you should reconsider those comments most especially as this is the Mind Zone and accusations of white supremacy, although fair game anywhere else, should be eschewed in the polite debate we normally wish to hold here. |
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Post by sandypine on Dec 5, 2023 20:12:17 GMT
OK then are English people with English heritage different from English people with Irish heritage and if they are not is Irish heritage in any way important that it should be mentioned? I have been over the Scottish bit and how if Scottish ethnicity depended on heritage then I would probably not be Scottish I would be more English. English people with Irish heritage and English people with English heritage have different heritages but are both English. Are you Scottish or not? I am Scots, but if ethnic Scots with Scottish heritage say I am not, and they do exist, then I would not be ethnically Scots. It is all a matter of individual AND group perceptions. |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 5, 2023 20:47:49 GMT
English people with Irish heritage and English people with English heritage have different heritages but are both English. Are you Scottish or not? I am Scots, but if ethnic Scots with Scottish heritage say I am not, and they do exist, then I would not be ethnically Scots. It is all a matter of individual AND group perceptions. So you are Scots despite not being ethnically Scottish? But I can't be English despite not being ethnically English? |
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Post by thomas on Dec 6, 2023 9:11:42 GMT
Yes but we're talking about Englishness. That's an ethnic group. There is no legal nationality 'English' Not quite true. You are given a birth certificate which defines you as part of the English nation , of which Wales is legally part of , are you not? |
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Post by Orac on Dec 6, 2023 9:18:50 GMT
I have just checked my birth certificate and can see no mention of the 'nation of England'. I was born In England btw.
As far as i'm aware there is no such legal entity as the English nation and no such nationality as English
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Post by thomas on Dec 6, 2023 9:25:30 GMT
I have just checked my Birth certificate and can see no mention of the 'nation of England'. I was born In England btw. As far as i'm aware there is no such legal entity as the English nation and no such nationality as English go into any registry office in your country and ask. They will tell you they don't issue British birth certificates , for example a scot or northern Irish person can't get a copy of their brith certificate from an English registry office and vice versa in Scotland / Northern Ireland. So for the important documents of birth death marriages , you are defined as a member of an entity called England and Wales. Define that entity as you like , but in reality it's the nation or kingdom of England , of which Wales was legally incorporated into in the 16th century. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Dec 6, 2023 9:26:35 GMT
Orac: "As far as i'm aware there is no such legal entity as the English nation and no such nationality as English"
Even though one has been confected solely for sporting purposes. However that may not be true for very much longer (the 'solely' bit) and the proposition in the OP and the associated question "Who is English" may be something we will need to wrestle with in the near future, if not in our time then certainly in our childrens'. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 6, 2023 9:34:54 GMT
I have just checked my Birth certificate and can see no mention of the 'nation of England'. I was born In England btw. As far as i'm aware there is no such legal entity as the English nation and no such nationality as English go into any registry office in your country and ask. They will tell you they don't issue British birth certificates , for example a scot or northern Irish person can't get a copy of their brith certificate from an English registry office and vice versa in Scotland / Northern Ireland. So for the important documents of birth death marriages , you are defined as a member of an entity called England and Wales. Define that entity as you like , but in reality it's the nation or kingdom of England , of which Wales was legally incorporated into in the 16th century. I didn't say it didn't exist as a legal entity. The territory 'England' exists legally, but it isn't a nation. Btw usual usage is 'England and Wales'. That's the second time you have specifically gone out of your way to reference or infer something that is only very arguable (at best) - ie that Wales is somehow in England. It's a side issue you keep returning to. |
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Post by happyhornet on Dec 6, 2023 10:04:16 GMT
I have just checked my birth certificate and can see no mention of the 'nation of England'. I was born In England btw. As far as i'm aware there is no such legal entity as the English nation and no such nationality as English Denying the existence of English nationality? Waiting for Orac to be denounced as anti-English. Waiting. Waiting. |
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Post by Orac on Dec 6, 2023 10:10:09 GMT
Dappy, No ad hom please. This is a mind zone thread.
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Post by dappy on Dec 6, 2023 13:23:42 GMT
Dappy, No ad hom please. This is a mind zone thread. My apologies Orac. No Ad Hom intended. Genuinely I thought both Sandy and Dan would quite happily self-identify as white supremicists and hence wasn't intended as a slur. If that is not the case I can only humbly apologise. |
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