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Post by Vinny on Nov 26, 2023 9:21:05 GMT
It suggests that the more thoughtful, less easily fooled ones were more likely to think Brexit was a bad idea. And it seems to me that being more intelligent and thoughtful on average and less easily fooled by any old shit, they are more likely to have been right. It doesnt guarantee this to be so, but it is more evidence that we got what the stupid people wanted and the intelligent ones didnt. This is just more evidence that Brexit was always likely to be a bad idea, sold on the basis of bullshit. But it doesnt really matter now. Time will tell its own story in the end. So let us see what transpires over the next few years. Prejudiced bollocks. There were intelligent arguments on both sides and foolish arguments on both sides, you were conned into believing the foolish project fear arguments. And all your posts on the EU are rather ignorant and childish. I get that you like the idea of multinational cooperation (most here do), but there are better ways than the EU. Over and over and over again sovereign powers were handed to the EU without a vote by politicians who thought they knew best. Well they didn't know best. The same moron (John Major) who signed the Maastricht Treaty and took us into the EU took us into the ERM and plunged us into recession. The same moron who signed the Amsterdam and Nice Treaties believed lies about WMDs and took us into the Iraq war, a war which cost over 290 thousand lives. Intelligent? Not at all. The same moron who signed the Lisbon Treaty without a referendum was warned over and over to give us a referendum. He called people concerned about immigration "bigots", he then instead of owning his words and sticking to principles tried a mealy mouthed apology, grovelling for votes. Major, Blair and Brown by treaty, signed away sovereign powers to the Commission without our consent. Doing that signs away the power of the voters to change policy. After all, how can voters change a policy if it is in a treaty? The only way is to come out of that treaty. Going back would mean handing even more sovereign powers to the EU, the power of border control, the power over our currency to set interest rates, to control inflation. We would become even more of a vassal state than we were last time we were in. EU membership didn't work for us. Even the most Europhilic of intelligent people recognised the thing needed serious reforms and hadn't received reforms. Juncker flat refused. It's incredibly stupid to not recognise the political, social and economic problems that existed when we were in. Politically, we were a vassal state, a rule taker without any control at the ballot box, of EU policy. Socially, food banks, high rates of homelessness (a lot of whom were failed EU economic migrants), these are not a good sign. Economically, even Ford had stopped vehicle production in our country. The overvalued pound was seriously harming our exports. We've fixed that now. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2023 9:29:55 GMT
That's not going to do wonders for his ego. Perhaps the problem is something as simple as the ego, but before we can go there we must first find it. This would make a better topic.
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 26, 2023 9:36:31 GMT
^^ 27 typists run the EU? Crikey. Given that they cant vote on any legislation they "type", i fail to see the claim that they "run" the EU, impossible to defend. |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 26, 2023 9:49:21 GMT
Vinny says
"Major, Blair and Brown by treaty, signed away sovereign powers to the Commission without our consent."
Bollox.
You have rhe right to vote for your MEP.
The elected government in your country assigns them to EU parties.
These parties vote in or reject proposed EU legislation. This vote then goes to the Council, 27 elected leaders of their countries.
Proposed legislation also must be approved by individual members" elected parliament.
Tha means all legislation has to be passed by THREE democratically elected bodies.
Finally each member has the right to opt out of the legislation.
Vinny is suffering from far too much kool aid.
Exactly what sovereign powers did the UK sign away?
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Post by Vinny on Nov 26, 2023 10:07:56 GMT
It's rather amusing that in an opening post about "Alternative Realities", SRB posted an alternative reality.
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 26, 2023 10:15:09 GMT
All perceived realities are alternatives to every other one.
We dont even know if what we know as physical realities are real or just a mass delusion...after all what animals can or cannot see depends on their species.
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 26, 2023 11:01:19 GMT
All perceived realities are alternatives to every other one. We dont even know if what we know as physical realities are real or just a mass delusion...after all what animals can or cannot see depends on their species. I think it's pretty safe to say that we know that physical reality is actual and not "mass delusion". |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 26, 2023 11:05:51 GMT
"The Commission do the research, gather information, put together propositions after checking the legality, then pass the information onto others who will determine whether the proposition is acceptable or not."
Hooray.
Someone understands
Those "someones" are ALL democratically elected and the Commission cannot vote.
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 26, 2023 11:09:16 GMT
All perceived realities are alternatives to every other one. We dont even know if what we know as physical realities are real or just a mass delusion...after all what animals can or cannot see depends on their species. I think it's pretty safe to say that we know that physical reality is actual and not "mass delusion". In fact, we dont. Because we have seen only one reality through human eyes. Other realities exist for other species. Reality for a dog is the only one they know but who lnows which of us recognise the "real" reality? Maybe what we think we know isnt really real? |
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Nov 26, 2023 11:11:06 GMT
It took democracy to stop wars. No democracy has ever invaded another democracy. If the EU regresses towards dictatorship, by empowerment of the Commission rather than the Parliament, that is a danger, perhaps even of war. They need to empower the voters and strengthen democratic public control of the EU. Or, repatriate power back to national democracies and work together by different methods. Hitler was voted into power by a democratic vote. The fonaal voices in the EU are the two democratically elected ones...the council and the pzrliament. The commission are relatively typists. And condidering they are only 27 of them, you do accord them far more power than the democratically elected parliament, without which no law is passed. Christ. You are a total kool aid addict. ^^ 27 typists run the EU? Crikey. And judging from the post above, Kim's probably one of them!  |
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 26, 2023 11:12:29 GMT
I think it's pretty safe to say that we know that physical reality is actual and not "mass delusion". In fact, we dont. Because we have seen only one reality through human eyes. Other realities exist for other species. Reality for a dog is the only one they know but who lnows which of us recognise the "real" reality? Maybe what we think we know isnt really real? That doesn't mean that we (humans) don't know whether our physical reality is actual though. |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 26, 2023 11:20:08 GMT
In fact, we dont. Because we have seen only one reality through human eyes. Other realities exist for other species. Reality for a dog is the only one they know but who lnows which of us recognise the "real" reality? Maybe what we think we know isnt really real? That doesn't mean that we (humans) don't know whether our physical reality is actual though. It is actual to us. We can observe other species from within our own "reality" but we will never understand the reality any other living thing experiences. I have no idea what an octopus' reality is, or a bird's. We can only guess based on OUR reality. |
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Post by buccaneer on Nov 26, 2023 11:29:41 GMT
That doesn't mean that we (humans) don't know whether our physical reality is actual though. It is actual to us. We can observe other species from within our own "reality" but we will never understand the reality any other living thing experiences. I have no idea what an octopus' reality is, or a bird's. We can only guess based on OUR reality. Yes, I understand that but that doesn't mean our reality is "mass delusion". |
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Post by sandypine on Nov 26, 2023 11:58:55 GMT
Vinny says "Major, Blair and Brown by treaty, signed away sovereign powers to the Commission without our consent." Bollox. You have rhe right to vote for your MEP. The elected government in your country assigns them to EU parties. These parties vote in or reject proposed EU legislation. This vote then goes to the Council, 27 elected leaders of their countries. Proposed legislation also must be approved by individual members" elected parliament. Tha means all legislation has to be passed by THREE democratically elected bodies. Finally each member has the right to opt out of the legislation. Vinny is suffering from far too much kool aid. Exactly what sovereign powers did the UK sign away? What about the laws, the regulations, the direction of travel and the general outlook of the EEC before some form of democracy was in place. We are left with a fait accompli that is both difficult to change and resistant to change. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 26, 2023 13:59:22 GMT
It's very simple, leave voters included hugely educated people and the same can be said of remain. There was no incorrect box on the ballot but there was an incorrect response to the result. You aligned yourself with the idiots who tried to overturn the biggest democratic decision in our history. And you use insults towards the people whose votes you want, whilst hoping to get rid of the Tories. I don't respect your political position. Your arguments are fantasy. Meanwhile the economy continues growing. Even the Lib Dems are starting to realise that the best way is to roll with it rather than against it. I know that. I was talking about averages as measured by a representative survey, not every Leave voter or Remain voter. And just to be clear, although I think one or two people on this forum are prone to conspiracy theory type thinking in regards to the EU, most people on this forum cannot legitimately be called thick. I do not for example for a single moment regard you as thick. You are clearly an intelligent and knowledgeable person, as evidenced by the debates we have had regarding World War 2, for example. We have sometimes disagreed there too, but you can clearly put an intelligent argument together, full of facts. And I feel upon reflection that I have not done or said enough to avoid our disagreements in this thread looking like a personal attack which it isnt. I have decided that there is too much acrimony over this issue, and none of us are ever going to change each other's minds, though all of us are entitled to our own opinions and to put them forward. But I intend to mostly withdraw from this acrimonious debate and insofar as I do respond to anyone, will try to be less combative. How long that will last is an open question, lol |
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