|
|
Post by andrewbrown on Dec 29, 2023 13:25:15 GMT
And I doubt that anyone would describe Labour, the Lib Dems or the Greens as in any way centrist. Back to your black and white boxes again... 🙄 So, where should centrists vote? |
|
|
|
Post by Fairsociety on Dec 29, 2023 13:28:51 GMT
And I doubt that anyone would describe Labour, the Lib Dems or the Greens as in any way centrist. Back to your black and white boxes again... 🙄 So, where should centrists vote? At the moment it's mainly left wing politics, the Tories have wandered from the right to left, so there is a void for centrist and right wing politics, so those who aren't inclined to swing left or right don't have a viable alternative. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2023 13:40:44 GMT
Of course Labour are a broad church, in the same way that the Tories are. There's probably not a lot politically between a Tony Blair and a David Cameron, if you want to think in that 2 dimensional way. Currently we have the populists declaring that only they are the true conservative, trying to purge the more one nation Tories out of the party. You see it on these very boards. Some of them even believe that this is the way to public support. Personally I'd be very surprised. But the Tories are dreadful because they're relying on the Blairite mentality, not popularism. It's outdated, and I doubt anyone of the Right would trust Cameron today. He barely got in the last time as part of a coalition and only because Labour was going down under Brown. As you should know, once in it's harder to remove them. He removed himself when the people rejected his campaign over the EU. He is a proven liar and a coward, because he claimed he would go along with the outcome. His actions set the process back by a number of years as each new leader shuffled their feet. Labour has too many extremists and fanatics to be a broad church and they're just waiting to be released. Starmer is a gimp.
|
|
|
|
Post by johnofgwent on Dec 29, 2023 13:42:01 GMT
You can always tell when you have hit the spot with the lefties mate. Thanks for confirming that it was trolling rather than memory loss. FWIW I don't describe myself as a Leftie, I'm a centrist. My natural home is probably LibDem, but I've become somewhat of a tactical voter in recent years, voting LibDem, Green and Labour in various elections. serious question then. Has this strategy had any impact of any sort. And no i don’t mean ‘did your chosen candidate win’ i mean ‘did the one you voted against give a flying one As examples of what i mean, after the collapse in voter engagement in 2009 meant turnouts dropped to 13% and two BNP MEP’s were elected, the 2010 election saw gordon brown lie his face off that he stood for ‘british jobs for british workers’a (a slogan he nicked from the BNP) and junior immigration minister Phil Woolas started saying at hustings that the labour party wanted immigrants seeking asylum to register as asylum seekers at their place of entry and rely on agreements between EU countries to resettle successful applicants. Agreements to which the UK WAS a signatory. Of course this evaporated as soon as jezza ‘destroy all borders and let everyone who wants in have free access and free benefits’ Corbyn took the labour helm BUT there was a point where fear of a public shift to the right caused the left to rethink its public outpourings even though we all knew it to be bullshit. My query then is whether you think your actions and those of like minded individuals had any impact on the party you were voting against, or did they feel - as wankford clearly does in wales - that a collective voice now rather larger than the total number who voted for his party last time they went to the polls - can safely be told to fuck off and die as they will still get in again…. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Dec 29, 2023 13:50:27 GMT
Of course Labour are a broad church, in the same way that the Tories are. There's probably not a lot politically between a Tony Blair and a David Cameron, if you want to think in that 2 dimensional way. Currently we have the populists declaring that only they are the true conservative, trying to purge the more one nation Tories out of the party. You see it on these very boards. Some of them even believe that this is the way to public support. Personally I'd be very surprised. But the Tories are dreadful because they're relying on the Blairite mentality, not popularism. It's outdated, and I doubt anyone of the Right would trust Cameron today. He barely got in the last time as part of a coalition and only because Labour was going down under Brown. As you should know, once in it's harder to remove them. He removed himself when the people rejected his campaign over the EU. He is a proven liar and a coward, because he claimed he would go along with the outcome. His actions set the process back by a number of years as each new leader shuffled their feet. Labour has too many extremists and fanitics to be a broad church and they're just waiting to be released. Starmer is a gimp.
EH? If this true , then you have to admit you have one particularly stupid prime minister installing Dave into one of his major ministerial positions. you mean the first time surely? His second stint was won off the back of promising an eu referendum. I'm no fan of labour as you know , but this sort of stuff does get rather boring. According to your wisdom anyone who isn't you , and doesn't think like you is a fanatic and extremist from your ivory tower in la la land. Labours problems aren't that they are full of extremists and fanatics.......in the real world of uk politic , it's the fact they have too many bench warming careerists who are promising noting but more of the same as what the tories have been doing to a heartily sick electorate tired of so called centrist politics. |
|
|
|
Post by see2 on Dec 29, 2023 13:53:38 GMT
Back to your black and white boxes again... 🙄 So, where should centrists vote? At the moment it's mainly left wing politics, the Tories have wandered from the right to left, so there is a void for centrist and right wing politics, so those who aren't inclined to swing left or right don't have a viable alternative. The main points against Labour are triggered by the knowledge that the last time the country had a centrist government it kept the Conservatives out of office for the longest period in their history. There is obvious panic by some Conservative voters and posters, which is good to see. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 29, 2023 13:56:02 GMT
I don't care about your fandom, Tommy. My post was for Andrew, which he can take, leave, agree or oppose in full or in part. I don't think he needs an extremist to post on his behalf. That would be counter-productive. |
|
|
|
Post by zanygame on Dec 29, 2023 13:57:57 GMT
So if you're a centrist how will you equate that when Labour win with a big majority?... Are you suggesting that whoever wins a general election becomes the centre by default? So, for example, if the French National Front win the next French general election are they still "Far Right" in your view or would you then call them centrist? And what do you mean by a "Big majority"? I predict a low turnout and a Labour victory with a record low vote share (even lower than Blairs record low at the last Labour "Victory"). So about 20% of the electorate will vote Labour. So hardly representative of the majority. Would that still make them centrist in your view? I would argue the party getting a large majority of the votes must be the central point of the public, even if its a formally considered far right party. A big majority? Probably one larger than the next two parties combined. If only 20% vote then I wouldn't call that a big majority. So no it wold not make them centrist to me. |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Dec 29, 2023 14:06:19 GMT
I don't care about your fandom, Tommy. My post was for Andrew, which he can take, leave, agree or oppose in full of in part. I don't think he needs an extremist to post on his behalf. That would be counter-productive. what's a fandom chookie? Your post was as ever so full of inaccuracies bordering on nonsense you didnt realise Camerons last election victory as pm wasn't the coalition government? |
|
|
|
Post by thomas on Dec 29, 2023 14:14:53 GMT
At the moment it's mainly left wing politics, the Tories have wandered from the right to left, so there is a void for centrist and right wing politics, so those who aren't inclined to swing left or right don't have a viable alternative. The main points against Labour are triggered by the knowledge that the last time the country had a centrist government it kept the Conservatives out of office for the longest period in their history. It was nothing to do with a centrist government. It was to do with the fact Blair captured the left wing vote as they had no where else to go , and mopped up some of the tory marginals by offering them tory lite policies. He lost 4 million left wing voters in the process of his election victories , faced with probably the worst conservative opposition in the history of yookay politics at the time. His ever lasting legacy was none of the above , and landslides on tiny minorities. This isn't 1997 , and the political world has moved on . The cost in political terms to labour for those squandered blairite years , where much of the donkey work was done for Blair by smith and kinnock beforehand , seems to have been too much for labour to bear . As far as I can see tory voters are pissed off the tories have stopped being tory , rather than fear of some banal starmer so called centrist party. I wouldn't be surprised of both labour and tory take less than half the vote of the total uk electorate come next election. If you think starmer winning a victory on the back of say a fifth of the vote and the main parties being shunned by the majority as a good sign of a healthy democracy , then it jut more evidence of the fantasy universe you inhabit. |
|
|
|
Post by andrewbrown on Dec 29, 2023 15:29:24 GMT
Back to your black and white boxes again... 🙄 So, where should centrists vote? At the moment it's mainly left wing politics, the Tories have wandered from the right to left, so there is a void for centrist and right wing politics, so those who aren't inclined to swing left or right don't have a viable alternative. I'm not sure that's true. Boris at least gave them the opportunity by his launching of levelling up, but it turned out to be a bit of a damp squib, now Rishi is redistributing funds back down south in an attempt to sure up the blue wall. The 2% cut in NI next month was giving in to the populist in the party, but at a time when the country is unable to provide NHS, Social Services or Children's Services at an adequate level, most people see right through it. What will demonstrate whether this populist group have more hold over the government is whether they convince Hunt to make changes to inheritance tax for the wealthy whilst ordinary people struggle to eat in the room that they are struggling to heat. If they think of themselves before the needs of the country there is no way on God's earth you could argue they are left wing. |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Dec 29, 2023 15:30:37 GMT
And I doubt that anyone would describe Labour, the Lib Dems or the Greens as in any way centrist. Back to your black and white boxes again... 🙄 So, where should centrists vote? SDP |
|
|
|
Post by Pacifico on Dec 29, 2023 15:35:52 GMT
At the moment it's mainly left wing politics, the Tories have wandered from the right to left, so there is a void for centrist and right wing politics, so those who aren't inclined to swing left or right don't have a viable alternative. I'm not sure that's true. Boris at least gave them the opportunity by his launching of levelling up, but it turned out to be a bit of a damp squib, now Rishi is redistributing funds back down south in an attempt to sure up the blue wall. The 2% cut in NI next month was giving in to the populist in the party, but at a time when the country is unable to provide NHS, Social Services or Children's Services at an adequate level, most people see right through it. See, this is why people dont believe you when you protest that you are not left-wing. The NI cut was reversing the rise announced just 2 years ago that Labour campaigned against calling it a 'tax on jobs' - now the Government are doing what Labour called for they are giving in to the populists. A lower rate is either a bad thing for the economy or it is a populist measure - seems it depends on who is suggesting that. |
|
|
|
Post by andrewbrown on Dec 29, 2023 15:41:22 GMT
Of course Labour are a broad church, in the same way that the Tories are. There's probably not a lot politically between a Tony Blair and a David Cameron, if you want to think in that 2 dimensional way. Currently we have the populists declaring that only they are the true conservative, trying to purge the more one nation Tories out of the party. You see it on these very boards. Some of them even believe that this is the way to public support. Personally I'd be very surprised. But the Tories are dreadful because they're relying on the Blairite mentality, not popularism. It's outdated, and I doubt anyone of the Right would trust Cameron today. He barely got in the last time as part of a coalition and only because Labour was going down under Brown. As you should know, once in it's harder to remove them. He removed himself when the people rejected his campaign over the EU. He is a proven liar and a coward, because he claimed he would go along with the outcome. His actions set the process back by a number of years as each new leader shuffled their feet. Labour has too many extremists and fanatics to be a broad church and they're just waiting to be released. Starmer is a gimp.
Partially agree. Cameron is a coward - running away after the referendum. Maybe Brexit may have been different/more successful if he'd stayed on. We'll never know. I can't forgive him for austerity though. It's done more damages to the UK than the Luftwaffe. Unfortunately when Brexit and then Covid hit that put us in a place that was far more difficult to recover from. I can't see that more populism is the way out of this. After 5 years of instability the first thing we need is stability. Looking at the Tories we don't have that. Maybe Labour isn't the answer (and I totally agree about their lack of vision too) but I'm more hopeful that it will buy some time. |
|
|
|
Post by Fairsociety on Dec 29, 2023 15:43:35 GMT
At the moment it's mainly left wing politics, the Tories have wandered from the right to left, so there is a void for centrist and right wing politics, so those who aren't inclined to swing left or right don't have a viable alternative. I'm not sure that's true. Boris at least gave them the opportunity by his launching of levelling up, but it turned out to be a bit of a damp squib, now Rishi is redistributing funds back down south in an attempt to sure up the blue wall. The 2% cut in NI next month was giving in to the populist in the party, but at a time when the country is unable to provide NHS, Social Services or Children's Services at an adequate level, most people see right through it. What will demonstrate whether this populist group have more hold over the government is whether they convince Hunt to make changes to inheritance tax for the wealthy whilst ordinary people struggle to eat in the room that they are struggling to heat. If they think of themselves before the needs of the country there is no way on God's earth you could argue they are left wing. Johnson was on the right track until he met soppy woke snowflake Carrie, then all he was interested in was popping out more kids.
As for Sunak his heart will never be in stopping migrants to the UK, because of his own roots being the son of migrants, he might talk the talk, but that's all it is talk.
I admit his wifes parents are billionaires and Sunak is wealthy in his own right, so yes he will be focused on things like reducing taxes, stopping inheritance tax, because they directly effect him and his family, but at the end of the day don't be kidded, Labour also benefit from these policies given the fact that Starmer/Rayner/Thornberry/Harman ... to name a few, so they are hardly going to struggle to eat and keep one of their many properties heated.
|
|
