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Post by oracle75 on Nov 7, 2023 7:57:35 GMT
A two state solution will have to include a democratic vote for its political organisation and write a proper constitution.
Hamas should in my opinion be disbanded.
But i fear it will regroup under a different name..
The solution is that as a proper state, it will have a seat in the UN, most members who support Palestine (hence its position as having observer status). It cant be a member until it is a state.
As a state it will have recognised borders and Israel will find it internationally more difficult to cross. The settlements will have to be vacated and there will be some groundwork for cessation of armed conflict.
It doesnt matter if Hamas wants a two state solution. Dont forget the presence of the West Bank as a far greater part of Palestine and where the settlements are.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 7, 2023 9:40:58 GMT
Why would Israel agree to a two state solution when Hamas would lead the other state ?
A better short term solution would be to intermittently destroy Gaza and take a part of it each time they do.
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Post by see2 on Nov 7, 2023 10:11:28 GMT
You're the one taking the piss by not looking at the full picture of the Jews in Palestine, and in playing your mind games as if you can read my mind. You have a definite problem. What is your justification for the Jewish settler land thefts then? You have still to respond to this point. If you think they are right to steal this land then do tell us why. If not, why do you not acknowledge that fact? That you apparently cannot and will not recognise any fault at all on the Israeli side gives the lie to your much vaunted lack of bias. Your last comment makes you unworthy of a response to your post. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 7, 2023 10:29:02 GMT
A two state solution will have to include a democratic vote for its political organisation and write a proper constitution. Hamas should in my opinion be disbanded. But i fear it will regroup under a different name.. The solution is that as a proper state, it will have a seat in the UN, most members who support Palestine (hence its position as having observer status). It cant be a member until it is a state. As a state it will have recognised borders and Israel will find it internationally more difficult to cross. The settlements will have to be vacated and there will be some groundwork for cessation of armed conflict. It doesnt matter if Hamas wants a two state solution. Dont forget the presence of the West Bank as a far greater part of Palestine and where the settlements are. The Two State idea was in fact just a division of two Jurisdictions where neither had the authority to ban members from, or interfere with the religion of members from the other State. Simply put Jews would have the right to continue to live freely in the Arab State, and ditto the Arabs in the Israeli state. There are incidentally around 1.5 million Arabs living in Israel, and hundreds of Arabs entering and leaving Israel each week as part of the Israeli workforce. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 7, 2023 10:34:37 GMT
Why would Israel agree to a two state solution when Hamas would lead the other state ? A better short term solution would be to intermittently destroy Gaza and take a part of it each time they do. Direct Israeli control of all Gaza, with Hamas taken out and the tunnels filled. |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 7, 2023 11:32:58 GMT
A two state solution will have to include a democratic vote for its political organisation and write a proper constitution. Hamas should in my opinion be disbanded. But i fear it will regroup under a different name.. The solution is that as a proper state, it will have a seat in the UN, most members who support Palestine (hence its position as having observer status). It cant be a member until it is a state. As a state it will have recognised borders and Israel will find it internationally more difficult to cross. The settlements will have to be vacated and there will be some groundwork for cessation of armed conflict. It doesnt matter if Hamas wants a two state solution. Dont forget the presence of the West Bank as a far greater part of Palestine and where the settlements are. The Two State idea was in fact just a division of two Jurisdictions where neither had the authority to ban members from, or interfere with the religion of members from the other State. Simply put Jews would have the right to continue to live freely in the Arab State, and ditto the Arabs in the Israeli state. There are incidentally around 1.5 million Arabs living in Israel, and hundreds of Arabs entering and leaving Israel each week as part of the Israeli workforce. You clearly dont understand the rights as well as the responsibilities of official statehood. Please control your rhetorical consternation. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2023 13:24:09 GMT
No..... it is a historical fact resulting from defeat. Too long has passed to reverse that. The demographic changes were forced through by a totalitarian regime. But the Israeli settler land thefts are both more recent and still ongoing. Are you seriously trying to say that seizing someone else's land is justified by past Soviet behaviour? Seriously? And can you not see that there will never be peace as long as Israel keeps stealing Arab lands? You seem to be another one of those for whom Israel can do no wrong, even when it does. If you have to use Soviet land thefts and ethnic cleansing to justify Israels' land thefts, you are truly desperate. And I am still waiting for see 2's justification of the land thefts. Either he has none so ignores the issue, or he is about to entertain us with a justification as pathetic as yours. I'm struggling to see the logic in your position. What is the cut off time that means that some land thefts are an issue compared with those that are not? What date are you using for this criteria? That the land thefts are still ongoing and that most of those Jews living there were not born there is a significant factor. That you seem to see no problem with it, and think its okay to steal someones land in the knowledge that time will legitimise it, using as justification the example of Soviet ethnic cleansing, has the rancid stink of partisanism, justifying all wrongs by one side wghilst condemning all wrongs by the other. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2023 13:26:37 GMT
What you say is true of many Arabs perhaps but not all. Some of them sought peace on the basis of a two state solution, when Israel's leaders sought the same. The latter was murdered for it. Yes but they were not in the majority. Fatah were overwhelmingly popular when they rejected the 2 State solution offered in 2000 - should that majority support have been ignored? Well that a majority rejected a two state solution is indeed part of the problem. But wrongs by Israelis only reinforce that intransigence. They do not help. There is a lack of trust in each other on both sides, which is why there will likely be no peace. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2023 13:28:49 GMT
What is your justification for the Jewish settler land thefts then? You have still to respond to this point. If you think they are right to steal this land then do tell us why. If not, why do you not acknowledge that fact? That you apparently cannot and will not recognise any fault at all on the Israeli side gives the lie to your much vaunted lack of bias. Your last comment makes you unworthy of a response to your post. And still you fail to either condemn or attempt to excuse or justify Israeli land thefts. Which makes your bias obvious. |
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Post by Vinny on Nov 7, 2023 13:34:11 GMT
Either criticise Hamas AND Likud, or shut up.
Both sides are killing civilians.
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Post by see2 on Nov 7, 2023 14:05:12 GMT
Your last comment makes you unworthy of a response to your post. And still you fail to either condemn or attempt to excuse or justify Israeli land thefts. Which makes you bias obvious. More nonsense that is deservedly referred to as nonsense. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2023 16:19:50 GMT
And still you fail to either condemn or attempt to excuse or justify Israeli land thefts. Which makes you bias obvious. More nonsense that is deservedly referred to as nonsense. Again you fail to address the issue. Israeli settler land thefts are clearly not nonsense, they are documented facts. Are you so biased that you deny they are even happening? You are truly proving yourself to be an arrogant buffoon in your inability to address the issue because it is an unwelcome fact that does not fit with your obvious bias. Even Pacifico accepts the reality of it, even if he is reduced to invoking soviet era ethnic cleansing by way of justification. |
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2023 16:30:47 GMT
Either criticise Hamas AND Likud, or shut up. Both sides are killing civilians. I for one would be happy to condemn both. You see I can recognise wrongs on both sides, which see 2 and his ilk are wholly incapable of. In spite of repeated attempts I have yet to get him to say anything about the Jewish settler land thefts, either to deny them or justify them. In the face of facts that dont fit his entirely pro-Israel, right or wrong, bias, his modus operandi appears to be to stick his fingers in his ears whilst singing "Lalala, I cant hear you." And refers to the very asking of a question internationally recognised as a problem, as "nonsense". Not so much as an attempt to explain why such a question is nonsense of course. At least you and others can be relied upon to acknowledge the issue and seek to put some kind of explanation forward in Israel's defence, even if you do not acknowledge it as a problem. Pretending awkward questions he has no answer to to be nonsense is typical of the modus operandi of see 2, for whom I consequently have very little respect, because this makes him both morally and intellectually dishonest in the extreme. |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 7, 2023 16:37:59 GMT
I have come across people like See2 before. They cannot see anything wrong or illegal or questionable in whatever Israel has done or is doing. When asked a direct question they staet discussing something else or hurl personal abuse.
There isnt anything you can do with these people...they are as brainwashed and singleminded as Hamas and will never give and take as in a normal discussion.
And any reoly to them is another chance to have another argument.
Frankly their opinion doesnt matter anymore than anyone else's. You just end up exhausted.
Just nod and walk on.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 7, 2023 16:40:33 GMT
Labour supporters bickering over who they support in the middle east.
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