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Post by see2 on Oct 30, 2023 10:38:44 GMT
When I became aware of the massacre taking place in Israel 7th Oct, one of my early thoughts was that Israel had no option other than to destroy Hamas.
I never thought that the method of destroying Hamas would be so disastrous for the Arabs.
There are two points of view that I see.
1. The Israelis are entitled to destroy Hamas, if they don't then Hamas will come back stronger than Oct 7th, Well armed and maybe even accompanied by a well armed, well trained and well formed Hezbollah, and or others. Delivering an even greater blow than Oct 7th.
Israel see themselves at war for survival. The West did not count the deaths of innocent civilians in the war for survival against the Nazis.
2. Hamas, or the extremists that would replace them, cannot be destroyed, the hatred of the non-Muslim Israelis is far too deep amongst what appears to be the majority Muslim Arabs. That hate is being exacerbated by the killing of Arabs in Gaza taking place right now.
The minimum problem for the future of the Israelis might be a return to the high levels of suicide bombers, abductions and slayings and so on, of Israelis. And of course it could possibly entail far worse.
Catch 22 for the Israelis?
Given the lack of reactions in the world to the Massacre of the Israelis Oct 7th and the wide reactions against the Israeli invasion of Gaza it is difficult to se the Israelis coming out of this with anything at all.
Is there a way out for Israel?
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Post by wapentake on Oct 30, 2023 10:44:55 GMT
First off get rid of that **** Netanyahu,Israel cannot be unmade and neither can the Palestinians.
A two state solution needs to be enforced,there were accords happening with various Arab nations,it’s not impossible.
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Post by piglet on Nov 1, 2023 12:24:09 GMT
Its impossible to please the people all the time, if you do that you become invisible and are taken advantage of in every day life and in politics. Screw being fair, do whats best for yourself regardless, if youve tried to be compassionate, and the Isrealis have, and it hasnt worked, then please yourself.
There will be no two state solution, there will be a one state solution, gaza needs to become Israel, and not feel guilty about it, rout it out militarily, give bloody noses, and more, if Israel does not, it will fall.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 1, 2023 12:37:38 GMT
Two powerful factions are intent on wiping each other out.
There is no morality here
There are no soft options .
Pick a side or sit in the fence .
If Israel wins it won’t come after me . Not sure about the other side
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 1, 2023 13:37:04 GMT
When I became aware of the massacre taking place in Israel 7th Oct, one of my early thoughts was that Israel had no option other than to destroy Hamas. I never thought that the method of destroying Hamas would be so disastrous for the Arabs. There are two points of view that I see. 1. The Israelis are entitled to destroy Hamas, if they don't then Hamas will come back stronger than Oct 7th, Well armed and maybe even accompanied by a well armed, well trained and well formed Hezbollah, and or others. Delivering an even greater blow than Oct 7th. Israel see themselves at war for survival. The West did not count the deaths of innocent civilians in the war for survival against the Nazis. 2. Hamas, or the extremists that would replace them, cannot be destroyed, the hatred of the non-Muslim Israelis is far too deep amongst what appears to be the majority Muslim Arabs. That hate is being exacerbated by the killing of Arabs in Gaza taking place right now. The minimum problem for the future of the Israelis might be a return to the high levels of suicide bombers, abductions and slayings and so on, of Israelis. And of course it could possibly entail far worse. Catch 22 for the Israelis? Given the lack of reactions in the world to the Massacre of the Israelis Oct 7th and the wide reactions against the Israeli invasion of Gaza it is difficult to se the Israelis coming out of this with anything at all. Is there a way out for Israel?It's like asking - back in 1939 - if there's any way out for Poland. The West have to back Israel, because we're next for the "axis of evil" that is the Middle East. If the muslims (with the help of Iran and Russia etc) take Israel they'll be unstoppable. They're already taking over the West by stealth - illegal immigration, displacement, outbreeding the indigenous population etc. This would never have happened if Trump were president. Biden is seen as very weak in the ME. Which he is. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 1, 2023 14:13:48 GMT
When I became aware of the massacre taking place in Israel 7th Oct, one of my early thoughts was that Israel had no option other than to destroy Hamas. I never thought that the method of destroying Hamas would be so disastrous for the Arabs. There are two points of view that I see. 1. The Israelis are entitled to destroy Hamas, if they don't then Hamas will come back stronger than Oct 7th, Well armed and maybe even accompanied by a well armed, well trained and well formed Hezbollah, and or others. Delivering an even greater blow than Oct 7th. Israel see themselves at war for survival. The West did not count the deaths of innocent civilians in the war for survival against the Nazis. 2. Hamas, or the extremists that would replace them, cannot be destroyed, the hatred of the non-Muslim Israelis is far too deep amongst what appears to be the majority Muslim Arabs. That hate is being exacerbated by the killing of Arabs in Gaza taking place right now. The minimum problem for the future of the Israelis might be a return to the high levels of suicide bombers, abductions and slayings and so on, of Israelis. And of course it could possibly entail far worse. Catch 22 for the Israelis? Given the lack of reactions in the world to the Massacre of the Israelis Oct 7th and the wide reactions against the Israeli invasion of Gaza it is difficult to se the Israelis coming out of this with anything at all. Is there a way out for Israel?It's like asking - back in 1939 - if there's any way out for Poland. The West have to back Israel, because we're next for the "axis of evil" that is the Middle East. If the muslims (with the help of Iran and Russia etc) take Israel they'll be unstoppable. They're already taking over the West by stealth - illegal immigration, displacement, outbreeding the indigenous population etc. This would never have happened if Trump were president. Biden is seen as very weak in the ME. Which he is. I understand your concerns but IMO Trump is psychological mess, he will say what so many people want to hear, whether he can actually do things, or successfully, do things or not. Look at the mess he made over the US getting out of Afghanistan. And not forgetting his attempted coup to take over America. |
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Post by see2 on Nov 1, 2023 14:21:30 GMT
First off get rid of that **** Netanyahu,Israel cannot be unmade and neither can the Palestinians. A two state solution needs to be enforced,there were accords happening with various Arab nations,it’s not impossible. I don't recall any Arab nation wanting the two State solution, in fact they all seemed to call for the annihilation of Israel if it ever appeared. And tried to annihilate it once it did appear. This despite the Quran stating that Palestine belongs to the Jews. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Nov 1, 2023 14:32:10 GMT
Biden screwed up the withdrawal from Afghanistan. The policy to withdraw was correct - but Biden totally screwed up the execution. As for Trump's psychological state I don't know - I'm not a psychologist - but Trump had a decent relationship with Putin and he also set up the Abraham Accords which brokered agreement between the Middle East and the West. These appeared to be improving relations in this area but Iran decided to scupper them because it didn't want improved relationships. And Biden took his eye off Iran - as well as Ukraine.
I think the world would be in a VERY different (and better) place now if Trump were president. The thing is that "Leaders" are not necessarily likeable people, but Trump was taken seriously in the international community, whereas Biden isn't. He's an idiot.
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Post by see2 on Nov 1, 2023 14:49:43 GMT
Biden screwed up the withdrawal from Afghanistan. The policy to withdraw was correct - but Biden totally screwed up the execution. As for Trump's psychological state I don't know - I'm not a psychologist - but Trump had a decent relationship with Putin and he also set up the Abraham Accords which brokered agreement between the Middle East and the West. These appeared to be improving relations in this area but Iran decided to scupper them because it didn't want improved relationships. And Biden took his eye off Iran - as well as Ukraine. I think the world would be in a VERY different (and better) place now if Trump were president. The thing is that "Leaders" are not necessarily likeable people, but Trump was taken seriously in the international community, whereas Biden isn't. He's an idiot. Trump negotiated the date for US withdrawal with the Taliban, he then, as President, sat on his backside for NINE MONTHS, yes 9 months and did nothing about it leaving Biden no time to organise the withdrawal. ---- The date was set, the Taliban refused to allow extra time for withdrawal. I have heard Trump deceitfully imply that Biden made the mess up of withdrawal, and that is exactly the sort of dishonesty I expect from him. IMO the international community recognise the serious mental deficiency that blights Trumps credibility. |
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Post by wapentake on Nov 1, 2023 15:37:29 GMT
First off get rid of that **** Netanyahu,Israel cannot be unmade and neither can the Palestinians. A two state solution needs to be enforced,there were accords happening with various Arab nations,it’s not impossible. I don't recall any Arab nation wanting the two State solution, in fact they all seemed to call for the annihilation of Israel if it ever appeared. And tried to annihilate it once it did appear. This despite the Quran stating that Palestine belongs to the Jews. It’s just my opinion but of late Saudi has been making an accord with Israel,Egypt has had better relations too but it won’t happen overnight. Concessions need to be made on both sides,in Iran which of course isn’t Arab but is Muslim and has domestic problems the younger people are rebelling against religious loons. The west needs to foster that and not give the loons reason to appeal to the young by poor actions by ourselves. |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 1, 2023 15:42:14 GMT
Israel should give up the settlements vuilt on stolen land andd which are largely ginen to extremist right winf Israelis to act as a sort of armed border control, cement the 1967 border in law and give Palestine statehood, and enlist UN and western forces in annihilating Hamas.
Release all Palestinian prisoners held without trial in Israel.
Hold a UN controlled election in Palestine and create a no mans land around Palestine like between N and S Korea.
And always think about how you would feel if nazi Germany had managed to take over the UK. Would you have given up trying to reclaim your land?
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Post by Bentley on Nov 1, 2023 16:13:46 GMT
Israel should give up the settlements vuilt on stolen land andd which are largely ginen to extremist right winf Israelis to act as a sort of armed border control, cement the 1967 border in law and give Palestine statehood, and enlist UN and western forces in annihilating Hamas. Release all Palestinian prisoners held without trial in Israel. Hold a UN controlled election in Palestine and create a no mans land around Palestine like between N and S Korea. And always think about how you would feel if nazi Germany had managed to take over the UK. Would you have given up trying to reclaim your land? Comparing Israel with Nazi Germany? 🙄 |
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Post by see2 on Nov 1, 2023 16:21:53 GMT
Israel should give up the settlements vuilt on stolen land andd which are largely ginen to extremist right winf Israelis to act as a sort of armed border control, cement the 1967 border in law and give Palestine statehood, and enlist UN and western forces in annihilating Hamas. Release all Palestinian prisoners held without trial in Israel. Hold a UN controlled election in Palestine and create a no mans land around Palestine like between N and S Korea. And always think about how you would feel if nazi Germany had managed to take over the UK. Would you have given up trying to reclaim your land? I agree with much of your post, the one item where the Israelis might have some reasonable argument over, is "trying to reclaim your land." Many countries have gained or lost land because of war. The Israelis had the threat of losing all their land through war, it now looks like the attackers lost some land instead. |
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Post by oracle75 on Nov 1, 2023 16:26:49 GMT
Nope.to Benrley.
Just being occupied by a strong force that keeps putting its footprint on what used to be yours by culture and by history.
That controls your border, seaports, refuses to let you build an airport, controls your water and fuel.
Would you create a reactionary force to liberate your country or not?
The 18th century british living in America did. I suppose they were considered terrorists too, as were thz Native Indians whose lands were also stolen by the British.
Not to mention the MauMau who wanted their land back.Evzn the King now expresses understanding of their historical position.
Course the IRA were labelled terrorists for wanting independence from the country which had abused it for centuries.
I get a sour taste when i think of all the land thefts perpetrated by Europe but who label those whose land is stolen as terrorists when they want it back.
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Post by Bentley on Nov 1, 2023 17:03:37 GMT
Nope.to Benrley. Just being occupied by a strong force that keeps putting its footprint on what used to be yours by culture and by history. That controls your border, seaports, refuses to let you build an airport, controls your water and fuel. Would you create a reactionary force to liberate your country or not? The 18th century british living in America did. I suppose they were considered terrorists too, as were thz Native Indians whose lands were also stolen by the British. Not to mention the MauMau who wanted their land back.Evzn the King now expresses understanding of their historical position. Course the IRA were labelled terrorists for wanting independence from the country which had abused it for centuries. I get a sour taste when i think of all the land thefts perpetrated by Europe but who label those whose land is stolen as terrorists when they want it back. Hamas wants to destroy Israel . It’s not liberating anyone or anything . It’s aim is to destroy the state . Stop the straw men. |
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