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Post by zanygame on Dec 18, 2023 8:17:43 GMT
I'm talking about like for like and percentage wise, not raw numbers. Jonsky made the claim, you didn't challenge him, but you did me. and that says it all lying by omission is still lying. There are far more possible causes for a fire in an ICE vehicle pumping flammable fluids around its engine, squirting them at high pressure in an extremely hot environment. www.theguardian.com/business/2023/nov/20/do-electric-cars-pose-a-greater-fire-risk-than-petrol-or-diesel-vehicles#:~:text=%E2%80%9CAll%20the%20data%20shows%20that,just%20aren't%20reported.%E2%80%9D “ All the data shows that EVs are just much, much less likely to set on fire than their petrol equivalent,” said Colin Walker, the head of transport at the Energy and Climate Intelligence Unit thinktank. “The many, many fires that you have for petrol or diesel cars just aren’t reported.” Fires can start in several ways. Car batteries store energy by moving lithium ions inside a battery cell but if cells are penetrated or if impurities from manufacturing errors cause short-circuits, then unwanted chemical reactions can start “thermal runaway”, where cells heat up rapidly, releasing toxic and flammable gas. In petrol cars, fires can start via electrical faults causing sparks or if the engine overheats because of a fault in the cooling systems, potentially igniting flammable fuel. In Norway, which has the world’s highest proportion of electric car sales, there are between four and five times more fires in petrol and diesel cars, according to the directorate for social security and emergency preparedness. The Swedish Civil Contingencies Agency this year found that there were 3.8 fires per 100,000 electric or hybrid cars in 2022, compared with 68 fires per 100,000 cars when taking all fuel types into account. However, the latter figures include arson, making comparisons tricky. Australia’s Department of Defence funded EV FireSafe to look into the question. It found there was a 0.0012% chance of a passenger electric vehicle battery catching fire, compared with a 0.1% chance for internal combustion engine cars. (The Home Office said it was unable to provide data for the UK.)The last 2 statistics are perfect examples of meaningless statistics. As I said you need to compare like with like and also take into account the consequences. So you can't compare a virtually new BEV which does very low miles with an old ICE vehicle that does high mileage. In Norway they have a very high number of electric vehicles because the subsidies and benefits offered by the state (free parking for example) mean that they are very popular - but mainly for town use and shopping. Long journeys are done in big conventional engined 4X4s. And you need to take into account the cost of the damage done by a fire. If a BEV car battery catches fire the consequences are very serious. We've already seen the consequences of BEV fires - and they're so serious that some underwriters are no longer insuring them. That says it all. And as these BEVs get older the battery problems will tend to increase as they're shaken around on the road and charged more often. The last 2 statistics are better than yours and what they really show is that car fires in EV's vanishingly rare. That the chance of a fire in an EV is 1 in 85,000. That the chance of a fire in an ICE vehicle is 1 in 1,470. So your battery has to deteriorate by a bloody long way to get to be as risky as a vehicle loaded with an explosive liquid. Mostly what it shows is that you have no evidence for your scare stories and you are using that well tested scientific method of making shit up. As for the very serious consequences, can you point me too a few recorded incidences of these very serious consequences or is that a belief as well? |
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Post by dodgydave on Dec 19, 2023 2:57:05 GMT
I'd say 1 in 3 houses on my estate now have charge points.
Night time tariffs are 7.5p - 9p/kwh.
Personally, my 60 mile commute costs me £1.40 in electric... 2.4p per mile... and the car was £35k new on salary sacrifice and costs £320 a month for EVERYTHING... and there was no deposit. The wife's £55k Merc only costs her £400 a month, again no deposit. As they are on salary sacrifice they actually become cheaper the more you earn.
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Post by Red Rackham on Dec 19, 2023 3:07:00 GMT
I'd say 1 in 3 houses on my estate now have charge points. Night time tariffs are 7.5p - 9p/kwh. Personally, my 60 mile commute costs me £1.40 in electric... 2.4p per mile... and the car was £35k new on salary sacrifice and costs £320 a month for EVERYTHING... and there was no deposit. The wife's £55k Merc only costs her £400 a month, again no deposit. As they are on salary sacrifice they actually become cheaper the more you earn. My V8 diesel Range Rover does low twenties mpg, Mrs R's diesel Fiesta does about 50 mpg, more on a long run. No range anxiety, no chargers necessary, and those engines are good for 250,000 miles no problem. How many miles is your battery good for dodgy and more to the point, how much will it cost to replace your battery? |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 19, 2023 5:44:55 GMT
I'd say 1 in 3 houses on my estate now have charge points. Night time tariffs are 7.5p - 9p/kwh. Personally, my 60 mile commute costs me £1.40 in electric... 2.4p per mile... and the car was £35k new on salary sacrifice and costs £320 a month for EVERYTHING... and there was no deposit. The wife's £55k Merc only costs her £400 a month, again no deposit. As they are on salary sacrifice they actually become cheaper the more you earn. My V8 diesel Range Rover does low twenties mpg, Mrs R's diesel Fiesta does about 50 mpg, more on a long run. No range anxiety, no chargers necessary, and those engines are good for 250,000 miles no problem. How many miles is your battery good for dodgy and more to the point, how much will it cost to replace your battery? So your Range rover will cost you £93,000 in fuel for your 250,000 miles. Dodgy's EV will cost him £6,000 for his 250,000 miles. You'd better hope that battery replacement costs £87,000 quid. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Dec 19, 2023 7:43:36 GMT
The last 2 statistics are perfect examples of meaningless statistics. As I said you need to compare like with like and also take into account the consequences. So you can't compare a virtually new BEV which does very low miles with an old ICE vehicle that does high mileage. In Norway they have a very high number of electric vehicles because the subsidies and benefits offered by the state (free parking for example) mean that they are very popular - but mainly for town use and shopping. Long journeys are done in big conventional engined 4X4s. And you need to take into account the cost of the damage done by a fire. If a BEV car battery catches fire the consequences are very serious. We've already seen the consequences of BEV fires - and they're so serious that some underwriters are no longer insuring them. That says it all. And as these BEVs get older the battery problems will tend to increase as they're shaken around on the road and charged more often. The last 2 statistics are better than yours and what they really show is that car fires in EV's vanishingly rare. That the chance of a fire in an EV is 1 in 85,000.
That the chance of a fire in an ICE vehicle is 1 in 1,470.So your battery has to deteriorate by a bloody long way to get to be as risky as a vehicle loaded with an explosive liquid. Mostly what it shows is that you have no evidence for your scare stories and you are using that well tested scientific method of making shit up. As for the very serious consequences, can you point me too a few recorded incidences of these very serious consequences or is that a belief as well? I expect the chances of a fire in an ICE vehicle would be minute also if there were only a few around, they were all virtually new and they were driven tiny mileages. The thing is that these cars are a bad accident waiting to happen - and the more the batteries gets shaken around the more dangerous they become. If you don't mind driving around with your bum a few inches from a potentially explosive battery then that's your choice, but it seems others are less willing to buy them judging by the declining sales figures. BTW there was a report on these 7.5p/kWh electricity deals on Moneybox last week. It said that they're a "trial" so I guess they're not necessarily going to be around for very long - which is not surprising as it's a fraction of cost price. It also said that they're hard to get and you have to fill in a lot of forms and have the right type of BEV. I suspect that this is a govt subsidised offer to try to get people to buy electric cars. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 19, 2023 7:52:16 GMT
I'd like to know what Dodgy's commute would cost if he were one of the 30% of homes that didnt have access to off street parking and charging..
For some specific situations EV's work out great - for many though they are a non-starter.
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Post by zanygame on Dec 19, 2023 8:13:28 GMT
The last 2 statistics are better than yours and what they really show is that car fires in EV's vanishingly rare. That the chance of a fire in an EV is 1 in 85,000.
That the chance of a fire in an ICE vehicle is 1 in 1,470.So your battery has to deteriorate by a bloody long way to get to be as risky as a vehicle loaded with an explosive liquid. Mostly what it shows is that you have no evidence for your scare stories and you are using that well tested scientific method of making shit up. As for the very serious consequences, can you point me too a few recorded incidences of these very serious consequences or is that a belief as well? I expect the chances of a fire in an ICE vehicle would be minute also if there were only a few around, they were all virtually new and they were driven tiny mileages. The thing is that these cars are a bad accident waiting to happen - and the more the batteries gets shaken around the more dangerous they become. If you don't mind driving around with your bum a few inches from a potentially explosive battery then that's your choice, but it seems others are less willing to buy them judging by the declining sales figures. BTW there was a report on these 7.5p/kWh electricity deals on Moneybox last week. It said that they're a "trial" so I guess they're not necessarily going to be around for very long - which is not surprising as it's a fraction of cost price. It also said that they're hard to get and you have to fill in a lot of forms and have the right type of BEV. I suspect that this is a govt subsidised offer to try to get people to buy electric cars. Do you not understand the meaning of 1 in 1,470? It means out of every 1,470 1 catches fire. EV's do the journeys as ICE vehicles. People haven't stopped living their lives because they bought an EV. As for shaking a battery I'm sure they thought of that. How do you feel about sitting in front of 50 ltrs of highly volatile liquid. Far more likely to catch fire, or do you think they might have considered that. Now stop making shit up or give me some evidence. Everything you've said so far I have shown is incorrect whilst you have shown nothing. 7.5pelectric is just a trial, which must mean its going to end soon. How much more crap can you make up. Even if it doubled to 15p it would still only cost 4.8p a mile compared to your gas guzzling 20p a mile. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 19, 2023 8:18:11 GMT
I'd like to know what Dodgy's commute would cost if he were one of the 30% of homes that didnt have access to off street parking and charging.. For some specific situations EV's work out great - for many though they are a non-starter. About £6.00 a gallon equivalent if you use the public fast chargers. £2.50 a gallon equivalent if you charge it at a slow one while you work. |
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 19, 2023 8:39:11 GMT
I'd like to know what Dodgy's commute would cost if he were one of the 30% of homes that didnt have access to off street parking and charging.. For some specific situations EV's work out great - for many though they are a non-starter. About £6.00 a gallon equivalent if you use the public fast chargers. £2.50 a gallon equivalent if you charge it at a slow one while you work. Hmm, I have just used Zap-Maps comparison and looking at a diesel Audi Q5 compared with an electric Q4, using todays pricing for public chargers near me - it comes to the EV being £4 more expensive per 100 miles using a rapid charger (50kw) and the price the same if using a fast charger (22kw). EV's are only a saving if you have off street parking. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 19, 2023 13:21:33 GMT
About £6.00 a gallon equivalent if you use the public fast chargers. £2.50 a gallon equivalent if you charge it at a slow one while you work. Hmm, I have just used Zap-Maps comparison and looking at a diesel Audi Q5 compared with an electric Q4, using todays pricing for public chargers near me - it comes to the EV being £4 more expensive per 100 miles using a rapid charger (50kw) and the price the same if using a fast charger (22kw). EV's are only a saving if you have off street parking. Ok, it must vary, I did it last time you asked. But your assumption is wrong as many places in towns are cheaper or even free. |
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Post by Baron von Lotsov on Dec 19, 2023 13:41:15 GMT
About £6.00 a gallon equivalent if you use the public fast chargers. £2.50 a gallon equivalent if you charge it at a slow one while you work. Hmm, I have just used Zap-Maps comparison and looking at a diesel Audi Q5 compared with an electric Q4, using todays pricing for public chargers near me - it comes to the EV being £4 more expensive per 100 miles using a rapid charger (50kw) and the price the same if using a fast charger (22kw). EV's are only a saving if you have off street parking. You might like to look at this. It's about the business of EV charger firms and why they lose so much money. It may go some way to explaining your findings above.
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Post by Pacifico on Dec 19, 2023 22:29:57 GMT
Interesting vid on the finances behind EV charging infrastructure. Looking at that I don't see much changing any time soon - in fact it looks likely to get worse.
Are we going to have to subsidise the charging points next?
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Post by steppenwolf on Dec 20, 2023 8:03:01 GMT
I expect the chances of a fire in an ICE vehicle would be minute also if there were only a few around, they were all virtually new and they were driven tiny mileages. The thing is that these cars are a bad accident waiting to happen - and the more the batteries gets shaken around the more dangerous they become. If you don't mind driving around with your bum a few inches from a potentially explosive battery then that's your choice, but it seems others are less willing to buy them judging by the declining sales figures. BTW there was a report on these 7.5p/kWh electricity deals on Moneybox last week. It said that they're a "trial" so I guess they're not necessarily going to be around for very long - which is not surprising as it's a fraction of cost price. It also said that they're hard to get and you have to fill in a lot of forms and have the right type of BEV. I suspect that this is a govt subsidised offer to try to get people to buy electric cars. Do you not understand the meaning of 1 in 1,470? It means out of every 1,470 1 catches fire. EV's do the journeys as ICE vehicles. People haven't stopped living their lives because they bought an EV. As for shaking a battery I'm sure they thought of that. How do you feel about sitting in front of 50 ltrs of highly volatile liquid. Far more likely to catch fire, or do you think they might have considered that. Now stop making shit up or give me some evidence. Everything you've said so far I have shown is incorrect whilst you have shown nothing. 7.5pelectric is just a trial, which must mean its going to end soon. How much more crap can you make up. Even if it doubled to 15p it would still only cost 4.8p a mile compared to your gas guzzling 20p a mile. Just like they thought about the NOx emissions of diesels.  Like I said you're staggeringly gullible zany. And everything you've said is obviously wrong. No one buys a BEV to do high mileages - they just don't work. They're short journey and shopping cars. For anything else they're useless. But "time makes more converts than argument". It's blindingly obvious that BEVs with Li-ion batteries are a dead-end for so many reasons that you'd need a book to list them all. The only question is how long it will take for them to die. Sales are on the slide and private industry isn't building the charging stations. Only a matter of time. |
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Post by walterpaisley on Dec 20, 2023 8:39:13 GMT
Took delivery of my new MG last week. Early days, and I won't be using it much over the Festive Period (I'll be going 30 km tomorrow, and that'll be the longest journey until January), but I'm going to take it from Derbyshire to Cardiff in a few weeks' time - and I've signed up to this scheme for an en route topup.. co-charger.com/No idea how well (or otherwise) it pans out. Will report.. |
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Post by zanygame on Dec 20, 2023 8:48:59 GMT
Took delivery of my new MG last week. Early days, and I won't be using it much over the Festive Period (I'll be going 30 km tomorrow, and that'll be the longest journey until January), but I'm going to take it from Derbyshire to Cardiff in a few weeks' time - and I've signed up to this scheme for an en route topup.. co-charger.com/No idea how well (or otherwise) it pans out. Will report.. Thanks for the link, its a good idea and the future I think. I've passed it onto a few friends who have chargers on their homes. My son has the same car as you, loves it to bits. |
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Like I said you're staggeringly gullible zany. And everything you've said is obviously wrong. No one buys a BEV to do high mileages - they just don't work. They're short journey and shopping cars. For anything else they're useless. 