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Post by zanygame on Oct 13, 2023 11:37:04 GMT
Yes we've already said £48.00 par MWh is less than it costs to produce currently. That does not mean its more expensive than gas generation. To clarify for you. Wind/solar £50 per MWh Gas £100 per MWh. Gas twice as much as wind/ solar. Is that simple enough for you? You can buy wind/solar for £70 per MWh but you can't buy Gas for £70 per MWh. Therefore wind/solar cheaper than gas. I thought you'd understood this very simple maths and were prevaricating. Now I'm not so sure. where are you getting these figures from - who is saying that wind is profitable at £50 MWh? With regards to gas - Domestic prices for gas in the US (where they dont have all the renewables subsidies tacked on) are £55 MWh. So the wholesale production price is much lower. I've already posted several links saying the same price for wind power. You can claim they're all fake if it pleases you. How dishonest are you willing to get? Domestic price for gas in America has nothing to do with the price we pay. And the price we buy gas for is before any green levies. What's more that still makes gas (even home grown American shale gas not effected by Putin) more expensive than wind/solar. And wind/solar in the U.S is even cheaper than here. At $33 per MWh. |
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Post by dappy on Oct 13, 2023 11:59:42 GMT
He also seems to be back to comparing the cost of electricity generated by wind to the raw material price for gas rather than the cost of electricity generated from gas. In which case the cost of wind is zero! Unfortunately though your Hoover isn’t going to work until someone goes to the trouble of converting wind or gas to electric….
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Post by dappy on Oct 13, 2023 12:03:19 GMT
Worth noting by the way that the Dogger offshore wind farm - the biggest offshore wind farm in the world - started generating power today feeding its cheap power into the grid. Great news.
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Post by borchester on Oct 13, 2023 12:36:27 GMT
It was a lovely day here in Kent. Scotland has always had worse weather than us.
It is a shit day here in London.
It is a mild, sunny day but instead of sitting in the garden and enjoying it, I have to go to the hospital for a blood test. It is like being part of a Hammer House of Horror movie, except that instead of having Ingrid Pitt sinking her teeth into me, I have a brisk nurse with a blunt needle
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Post by zanygame on Oct 13, 2023 13:01:47 GMT
He also seems to be back to comparing the cost of electricity generated by wind to the raw material price for gas rather than the cost of electricity generated from gas. In which case the cost of wind is zero! Unfortunately though your Hoover isn’t going to work until someone goes to the trouble of converting wind or gas to electric…. Not if you have a gas powered hoover.  |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 13, 2023 13:03:29 GMT
Worth noting by the way that the Dogger offshore wind farm - the biggest offshore wind farm in the world - started generating power today feeding its cheap power into the grid. Great news. Till it gets to where the pylons run out. Bloody useless government. |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 13, 2023 13:43:54 GMT
I am not clear here on offshore wind are we including anything from the 4.3billion subsidy the British taxpayer has paid. No it doesn't, they were development costs. Does the cost of gas stations include a factor for the development and construction costs? Surely if we are discussing relative costs then we should include all costs attributable to the process? |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 13, 2023 15:18:36 GMT
No it doesn't, they were development costs. Does the cost of gas stations include a factor for the development and construction costs? Surely if we are discussing relative costs then we should include all costs attributable to the process? You should include development costs for new wind turbine divided over their life span. You should not include gas generators as they already exist. You might want to include more gas storage if you envisage gas generation being our future. Short term you could claim renewables are more expensive because of the development costs. But that is true of pretty much every technical leap forward. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 13, 2023 17:21:33 GMT
where are you getting these figures from - who is saying that wind is profitable at £50 MWh? With regards to gas - Domestic prices for gas in the US (where they dont have all the renewables subsidies tacked on) are £55 MWh. So the wholesale production price is much lower. I've already posted several links saying the same price for wind power. You can claim they're all fake if it pleases you Dont be daft - you published one link to a site that calculated the cost based on a strike price of £44 - and we all know that is nonsense. The costs of getting gas out of the ground in the US are exactly the same as in the UK - there is not some weird geological phenomena that makes gas extraction in the UK twice as expensive as the US. The US have the same problem as the UK in that offshore wind is uneconomic without subsidy. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 13, 2023 17:59:27 GMT
I've already posted several links saying the same price for wind power. You can claim they're all fake if it pleases you No we all don't. Only you. Solar park and wind farms' typical operating costs are 2p/kWh. 8p/kWh - 2p/kWh = an average saving of about 6p/kWhp/kWh generated. The average residential retail electricity price, based on BEIS's projections (2021-2040) is about 20p/kWh. rippleenergy.com/referencesEnough now. Yer if only. I tint bit of our gas comes from 4 miles under the north sea. And most of it we buy from Norway. Jeez. The US have the same problem as the UK in that offshore wind is uneconomic without subsidy. Several factors may have put a damper on developer interest, the newsletter Heatmap reported last week. Gulf wind speeds are often lower than other coastal areas’, requiring the use of specific turbines for which a robust supply chain must be developed. No Gulf states’ energy policies specifically require the use of offshore wind. And analysts say building out offshore wind in the Gulf will be more expensive than in the north-east, making it harder for wind projects to compete in local energy markets, where existing energy prices are lower. Did you read pass the headline? |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 13, 2023 18:17:53 GMT
Does the cost of gas stations include a factor for the development and construction costs? Surely if we are discussing relative costs then we should include all costs attributable to the process? You should include development costs for new wind turbine divided over their life span. You should not include gas generators as they already exist. You might want to include more gas storage if you envisage gas generation being our future. Short term you could claim renewables are more expensive because of the development costs. But that is true of pretty much every technical leap forward. Did gas generators suddenly arrive from nowhere. Surely if they are being used they had a development cos, a construction cost and a maintenance cost which all have to be factored in to the price of gas powered electric. The point I am trying to make is that every method of generation has all the costs unless someone else paid for it and they do not need to. One cannot compare costs if one is not comparing like with like |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 13, 2023 19:49:43 GMT
You should include development costs for new wind turbine divided over their life span. You should not include gas generators as they already exist. You might want to include more gas storage if you envisage gas generation being our future. Short term you could claim renewables are more expensive because of the development costs. But that is true of pretty much every technical leap forward. Did gas generators suddenly arrive from nowhere. Surely if they are being used they had a development cos, a construction cost and a maintenance cost which all have to be factored in to the price of gas powered electric. The point I am trying to make is that every method of generation has all the costs unless someone else paid for it and they do not need to. One cannot compare costs if one is not comparing like with like When you are introducing new technology its rare to count a cost of the technology you already have. |
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Post by sandypine on Oct 13, 2023 20:00:24 GMT
Did gas generators suddenly arrive from nowhere. Surely if they are being used they had a development cos, a construction cost and a maintenance cost which all have to be factored in to the price of gas powered electric. The point I am trying to make is that every method of generation has all the costs unless someone else paid for it and they do not need to. One cannot compare costs if one is not comparing like with like When you are introducing new technology its rare to count a cost of the technology you already have. Whoa there, the technology for gas generators is being improved all the time as part of ongoing development. Wind has been around for thousands of years with the same basic principles. All that was required was efficient development of locations, gearing, design, transmission and maintenance. These are costs that should be included in the cost of generating. I visited a wind development company back in the early 80s near Southampton, they were bearing the cost at that time. If a new drug comes on the market it is priced to include all the development costs. I am saying we are not comparing like with like and of course there is always the issue of consistency of supply. |
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Post by zanygame on Oct 13, 2023 21:27:52 GMT
When you are introducing new technology its rare to count a cost of the technology you already have. Whoa there, the technology for gas generators is being improved all the time as part of ongoing development. Wind has been around for thousands of years with the same basic principles. All that was required was efficient development of locations, gearing, design, transmission and maintenance. These are costs that should be included in the cost of generating. I visited a wind development company back in the early 80s near Southampton, they were bearing the cost at that time. If a new drug comes on the market it is priced to include all the development costs. I am saying we are not comparing like with like and of course there is always the issue of consistency of supply. When was the last time we replaced a gas power station. But I'm happy for you to count it if you wish. It strengthens the case for wind. |
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Post by Pacifico on Oct 13, 2023 21:31:29 GMT
Solar park and wind farms' typical operating costs are 2p/kWh. 8p/kWh - 2p/kWh = an average saving of about 6p/kWhp/kWh generated. The average residential retail electricity price, based on BEIS's projections (2021-2040) is about 20p/kWh. rippleenergy.com/referencesEnough now. please stop citing renewable energy companies as evidence - of course they are going to say that renewables are cheaper..  Did you miss the highlighted bit? - offshore wind is uneconomic |
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