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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 8:49:39 GMT
"How about the black soldiers who fought for Britain in the two world wars, the windrush generation who helped rebuild the country after the second world war, black people saving lives in the NHS, black sports people representing our country and winning medals and trophies, black artists and musicians?" 1. There were almost no black troops in either world war. In WWI for example, there was a single black regiment in Africa and Palestine while the British army had 69 divisions on the Western Front. Need to keep things in perspective. In WWII none of the very few black soldiers involved was ever fired on by a German. 2. The Windrush generation did not turn up to help rebuild the country but to escape poverty and unemployment in the Caribbean. It was for their benefit, not ours. Besides which they were in overwhelmingly low-skill, menial occupations and contrary to popular myth, they were not invited. 3. Ditto for the NHS. Besides which, I don't hear much clamour for recognising the contribution of white people in the NHS (the Irish, say), so what was so special about the blacks? 4. Sports medals and trophies. Meh, who cares. 6. Artists? Like who? 7. Musicians? Like who?
We're looking for evidence of specific contributions that were over and above what the native population were able to provide themselves. Taking up a routine low-paid job is not a 'contribution'.
1) I wouldn't call 600,000 men from Adrian countries "very few". 2) I couldn't comment on the personal motives of every one of the windrush generation but they did do jobs that needed doing. I would have thought the pandemic would have taught us a lesson about looking down one's nose at people in supposed "low skilled" and "menial" occupations. 3) I believe that the point of BHM is that the contribution of black people has often been overlooked, you asking the question backs up this argument. 4) I appreciate not everyone is a sports fan but I don't think you can credibly argue that nobody cares about the world cup, Olympics etc. 6) en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Black_British_artists7) Like a lot of people my age I'm not that hot on contemporary music but Stormzy, Dizzee Rascal, Estelle, Tinnie Tempah and Emeli Sande spring to mind, historically Seal, Shirley Bassey, Billy Ocean, three quarters of Eternal, Goldie, Beverly Knight, Eddy Grant, Craig David. |
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Post by buccaneer on Oct 27, 2023 9:01:31 GMT
So, do black people have any history in Britain worth learning about, or is it more to placate the wokerati?
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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 9:05:42 GMT
So, do black people have any history in Britain worth learning about, or is it more to placate the wokerati? That's subjective and could be asked about any historical subject. Teach kids the facts and let them make their own judgement I say. |
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Post by buccaneer on Oct 27, 2023 9:12:34 GMT
So, do black people have any history in Britain worth learning about, or is it more to placate the wokerati? That's subjective and could be asked about any historical subject. Teach kids the facts and let them make their own judgement I say. Not necessarily, history isn't always taught about putting a race before a subject. That's not to say history cannot spotlight historical aspects related to race, but it sure seems to be forcing the issue with black history month. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 27, 2023 9:14:15 GMT
I'll deal with each of these points in turn: "1) I wouldn't call 600,000 men from Adrian countries "very few". Adrian? I think you mean African? Returning the discussion to the original topic, in WWI the British West Indian Regiment was the sole black unit in the British Army and eventually reached a strength of 15,000, or about 0.02% of the men mobilised by the British Army (although the BWIR were not conscripted). However it was strictly segregated and never engaged in front-line duty on the Western Front. In WWII around 30,000 West Indians enlisted with the British forces but again few if any ever saw front-line combat. If you'd taken my advice and read the review of David Olusoga's book 'Black and British: A forgotten History' you would have known this already. Here's the link again. Unless you want to argue the toss still further I'll consider this point refuted and closed and move on to the next. ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/thread/2454/black-british-forgotten-history |
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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 9:20:12 GMT
I'll deal with each of these points in turn: "1) I wouldn't call 600,000 men from Adrian countries "very few". Adrian? I think you mean African? Returning the discussion to the original topic, in WWI the British West Indian Regiment was the sole black unit in the British Army and eventually reached a strength of 15,000, or about 0.02% of the men mobilised by the British Army (although the BWIR were not conscripted). However it was strictly segregated and never engaged in front-line duty on the Western Front. In WWII around 30,000 West Indians enlisted with the British forces but again few if any ever saw front-line combat. If you'd taken my advice and read the review of David Olusoga's book 'Black and British: A forgotten History' you would have known this already. Here's the link again. Unless you want to argue the toss still further I'll consider this point refuted and closed and move on to the next. ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/thread/2454/black-british-forgotten-history"The 95-year-old great-grandfather was among 600,000 Africans who fought for the British during the second world war, on battlefields across their own continent as well as in Asia and the Middle East. Although their service has largely been forgotten, the mobilisation of this huge army from Britain’s colonies triggered the largest single movement of African men overseas since the slave trade." www.theguardian.com/global-development/2020/may/10/you-are-still-a-soldier-to-me-the-forgotten-african-hero-of-britains-colonial-army |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2023 9:20:51 GMT
So, do black people have any history in Britain worth learning about, or is it more to placate the wokerati? That's subjective and could be asked about any historical subject. Teach kids the facts and let them make their own judgement I say. 1 month out of 12. The entire history of this island. I don't even think they teach English history in schools now. |
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Post by Montegriffo on Oct 27, 2023 9:22:06 GMT
I got my degree from the University of Wolverhampton. Do you think we could perhaps go back to discussing the thread subject rather than me? We are discussing the topic. You claim to have all of the "facts and evidence" but have failed to produce anything. When I challenged you, you claimed that "I'm autistic" and "I am honest but because I lack the neurological hardware to do anything else"
How can anyone have a discussion with you when you hide yourself behind your own self-appraisal and neurological disorder?
Politely? |
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Post by Fairsociety on Oct 27, 2023 9:30:16 GMT
So basically, you don't listen to anybody and just spam forums lecturing people. When I was at University I had to rely on citations and references. Where did you get this history degree? I got my degree from the University of Wolverhampton. Do you think we could perhaps go back to discussing the thread subject rather than me? Well I've got a degree in... 'I told you so' ... and I've told everyone that if the loony lefties get in to power you can kiss goodbye to good old British traditional values, our Christmas, Easter, religious celebrations will be replaced with woke diversity snowflake titles, it's already beginning .... Christmas now = Holiday season. |
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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 9:32:36 GMT
That's subjective and could be asked about any historical subject. Teach kids the facts and let them make their own judgement I say. 1 month out of 12. The entire history of this island. I don't even think they teach English history in schools now. I've got two school age kids, I can assure you they do learn about English and British history. Yesterday was Tudor day at my kids school, there were some impressive costumes on display, fair play to the parents who must have laboured on them. |
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Post by happyhornet on Oct 27, 2023 9:35:19 GMT
I got my degree from the University of Wolverhampton. Do you think we could perhaps go back to discussing the thread subject rather than me? Well I've got a degree in... 'I told you so' ... and I've told everyone that if the loony lefties get in to power you can kiss goodbye to good old British traditional values, our Christmas, Easter, religious celebrations will be replaced with woke diversity snowflake titles, it's already beginning .... Christmas now = Holiday season. And you will be forced to become a transgender lesbian who must worship Gary Lineker five times a day. |
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Post by Fairsociety on Oct 27, 2023 9:36:40 GMT
Well I've got a degree in... 'I told you so' ... and I've told everyone that if the loony lefties get in to power you can kiss goodbye to good old British traditional values, our Christmas, Easter, religious celebrations will be replaced with woke diversity snowflake titles, it's already beginning .... Christmas now = Holiday season. And you will be forced to become a transgender lesbian who must worship Gary Lineker five times a day. Well that's the make-up of his fan club. |
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Post by Deleted on Oct 27, 2023 9:43:30 GMT
We are discussing the topic. You claim to have all of the "facts and evidence" but have failed to produce anything. When I challenged you, you claimed that "I'm autistic" and "I am honest but because I lack the neurological hardware to do anything else"
How can anyone have a discussion with you when you hide yourself behind your own self-appraisal and neurological disorder?
Politely? Of course, my post is merely being honest in the most direct and polite way possible, and still my original points went unanswered, where the above was the mere space filler. |
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Post by Dan Dare on Oct 27, 2023 9:45:25 GMT
Ah right. You seem to have abandoned the Afro-Caribbean contribution and now want to focus on Africa.
600,000 eh? Where did that number from, other than the Guardian?
I'm looking at the British Army Order of Battle for WWII and find five African colonial infantry divisions active at some point during the war, two of which were disbanded in 1941 after the Italian East African campaign. The other three were not raised until mid-1943 following which they were deployed in India.
Since a British army division had 15,000 men at most I can't get the numbers to add up to 600,000, can you.
Incidentally there were a further three (white) South African divisions including one armoured. Should they get a mention in BHM too?
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Post by Bentley on Oct 27, 2023 9:45:31 GMT
It’s not ice skating . It’s making historical claims that need to be substantiated before they are taught as facts. Your second sentence is a pathetic goal move . The reference to ice skating was a metaphor they're commonly used in debate. I never made an unsubstantiated historical claim. I repeat, it’s not ice skating . It might be a metaphor commonly used by you in debate but it’s inappropriate. You posted an unsubstantiated claim and can’t support it. |
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