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Post by thomas on Sept 29, 2023 7:05:31 GMT
i agree.
What i want to know is if the labour party have all the answers for education in general and know whats good for us in all the uk nations , why is it the one uk nation , wales , where they have been in charge consistently for nealry a quarter of a century has also consistently been at the bottom of the league tables for education ?
New international Pisa schools tables show Wales remains behind other UK nations
The Pisa results are published every three years and show how Wales' education system compares to others around the world
I agree Labour should be concerned about that, but to busy trying to blame everything on the Tories in the run up to the GE hoping some will believe their nonsense As ever though handyman this "everything bad labour do is all the fault of the tories" doesnt stack up time and again. Scotland and wales are similarly devolved under the current uk , yet if labour are the answer to the problems of society at large across the uk nations , and everything and is all the tories fault one way or the other , why is health , education and much else better in england and scotland than labour run wales?
Their arguments as ever dont stack up in any way.
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Post by dappy on Sept 29, 2023 8:50:45 GMT
Starmer went to a state school which then converted to a private school midway through his education. Does the establishment seriously believe that ordinary people are going to believe that the massive subsidy the state gives to establishment kids private education rather than being spent on ordinary state schools somehow benefits ordinary kids education? There is no subsidy to private education. Of course there is. VAT would normally be levied on these sort of services just like other goods and services. That VAT tax revenue would then be used to fund other public services like state school education. At present the Givernment chooses to divert this money away from funding education for ordinary kids and towards subsidising the cost of kids of richer establishment parents. Both are valid political options and you may feel subsidising the establishment to the detriment of ordinary people is the best political choice. Let’s not try to pretend that is not the choice you are making though. |
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Post by Handyman on Sept 29, 2023 8:59:24 GMT
The education system in England is not as good as it should be we have Schools that are failing some of our children that are the nations future, our NHS is not as good or efficient as it should be, but considering England has a bigger population than the other nations in the Union it is not surprising due to the high numbers it has to treat 24/7
IMHO Scotland has always provided better education in the past, I don't know about today, as for the NHS in Scotland and Wales not good and also found wanting that was obvious during the Pandemic.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 29, 2023 10:45:23 GMT
There is no subsidy to private education. Of course there is. VAT would normally be levied on these sort of services just like other goods and services. That VAT tax revenue would then be used to fund other public services like state school education. At present the Givernment chooses to divert this money away from funding education for ordinary kids and towards subsidising the cost of kids of richer establishment parents. Both are valid political options and you may feel subsidising the establishment to the detriment of ordinary people is the best political choice. Let’s not try to pretend that is not the choice you are making though. Education is a national good (for obvious reasons) - and as such VAT is not applied. What benefit would be accrued if we levied VAT on university fees? |
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Post by dappy on Sept 29, 2023 10:55:23 GMT
Private schools sell a service to their usually but not exclusively affluent customers. VAT would normally be applied to that sale just like other sales. That VAT then funds state expenditure, eg on state schools.
The Government prioritises the establishment children’s education over that of ordinary children by diverting the VAT resource away from paying for ordinary kids and instead subsidising the establishment kids education costs.
As I say you are perfectly free to support this choice but to try to pretend that the choice is not being made is just silly.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 29, 2023 10:58:40 GMT
Private schools sell a service to their usually but not exclusively affluent customers. VAT would normally be applied to that sale just like other sales. That VAT then funds state expenditure, eg on state schools. So you would support putting VAT on University fees? |
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Post by dappy on Sept 29, 2023 11:12:30 GMT
University funding is a whole different subject Pacifico and a very large one. I suggest we don't divert the thread onto that subject. If you wish to discuss that, perhaps a new thread would be better.
Politics is about making choices. State Resources are always limited. We have to collectively decide how to spend those resources. In the case of this thread, we have a very simple choice. We can either spend those limited resources by subsidizing establishment kids private school education or we can use those limited resources on funding the education of ordinary children.
It seems your choice is to prioritise and subsidise generally affluent establishment kids over ordinary kids. That's cool.
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Post by Dan Dare on Sept 29, 2023 11:29:24 GMT
Exempting university fees from VAT also prioritises and subsidises 'affluent establishment kids', including many foreigners. Pacifico is right.
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Post by Red Rackham on Sept 29, 2023 11:49:23 GMT
VAT Private Schools Fees & a Labour Government.......Does this mean that labour MP's will be now sending their Kids to Blairs deathtraps?
The Labour Party has committed to the removal of several tax exemptions from private schools. This article considers their plans to impose 20% VAT on private school fees, which are currently exempt from VAT. If this affects you, please read on. What has the Labour Party said? Bridget Phillipson, the Shadow Education Secretary, said the following in early 2023. “Labour will put our children, their futures, and the future of our country first by asking those with the broadest shoulders to contribute their fair share by requiring private schools to pay business rates as state schools already do and to pay VAT as our colleges already do. Labour would use the funds raised by removing private schools’ tax exemptions to recruit 6,500 more teachers, as well as to offer additional teacher training and careers advice and work experience for all pupils.”
It's the politics of envy, socialist governments and politicians have never liked what they consider to be 'elite' schools, even though many of them send their own children to them. I wonder if Starmer has considered that if these schools closed all it would achieve is to put even more pressure on the state school system. Socialist pillock. |
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Post by bancroft on Sept 29, 2023 12:24:16 GMT
I personally do not think private schools should be taxed as others have said those paying the fees probably already pay a fair amount in tax already.
I guess the Left see this as a class issue yet I like having more than one choice as if one's standards are failing lessons should be learned from the other.
The only thing I would argue for is Private schools intake to include 10% on scholarships via exams to allow for high achievers without rich parents.
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Post by dappy on Sept 29, 2023 12:25:13 GMT
Oh Red. You do make yourself look silly. Mate you need to be a little more objective. You are free of course to be on the right of politics but that doesn’t mean you have to blindly support any policies from the Tories/Reform and oppose all policies from Labour. That just looks stupid.
I don’t see myself as socialist but if prioritizing scarce state resources towards ordinary kids and away from subsidising privileged establishment kids is your definition of socialism, then I would be happy to be a socialist.
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Post by Tinculin on Sept 29, 2023 12:41:21 GMT
“Prioritising state resources” isn’t suddenly adding a tax to one group of children. It wasn’t funny when Labour did it to universities when they introduced tuition fees and it’s even less funny or smart when Labour are saying they’ll do it children of a school attending age.
Proponents of a policy like this are looking at this entirely in a vacuum of ‘rich kids vs poor kids’, and that really demonstrates little understanding of the issue.
There are plenty of places the money /could/ and more importantly /should/ come from without hitting private schools with an additional tax, which btw, won’t come close to solving the actual problem.
It’s an ill thought out policy that is simply set at creating wealth based friction, nothing more, nothing less.
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Post by patman post on Sept 29, 2023 13:03:20 GMT
Populist nonsense from Labour. They should concentrate on improving opportunities, rather pushing some weird communist idea that we are all equal lol. Labour's problem is that whenever it promotes schemes for fairness, its ideas always look as though it wants to achieve equality by pushing everyone down to the same level.
I guess I'm basically an old school "one nation" Tory — and no supporter of the current administration. I recognise that there's always likely be differences in achievement and wealth among the population, so I'd prefer more effort went into helping people advance themselves and achieve their aims by striving to provide equal access to opportunities to realise them...
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Post by Tinculin on Sept 29, 2023 13:04:53 GMT
Populist nonsense from Labour. They should concentrate on improving opportunities, rather pushing some weird communist idea that we are all equal lol. Labour's problem is that whenever it promotes schemes for fairness, its ideas always look as though it wants to achieve equality by pushing everyone down to the same level.
I guess I'm basically an old school "one nation" Tory — and no supporter of the current administration. I recognise that there's always likely be differences in achievement and wealth among the population, so I'd prefer more effort went into helping people advance themselves and achieve their aims by striving to provide equal access to opportunities to realise them...
Correct. Especially with education, it should be a race to the top, not the bottom. |
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Post by dappy on Sept 29, 2023 16:22:23 GMT
Absolutely we should be seeking to provide equal opportunities for all. Realistically we will never get there but that should be the direction of travel. In the perfect world there should be no need for private schools as state education is so good no-one would send their kids to private schools. Sadly we will probably not get there either.
This policy simply corrects a historic failing. If we truly wish to move towards providing equality of opportunity by raising state education standards that means in part more resources. So clearly we should be spending limited resources on those ordinary kids state schools rather than subsidising generally affluent establishment kids private education.
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