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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 20:14:53 GMT
IMO "Direct democracy" leaves democracy vulnerable to the people with the loudest voices and the smallest minds, but with the greatest ability to influence others. A very dangerous road to take. At least it represents a peoples choice not a few arrogant politicos choice. If it were all left to the lumpen masses, they'd all vote for ever more spending on the stuff they like simply because they like those things. But they would also vote for ever lower taxes because nobody likes paying tax right? And when the inevitable bankruptcy occurs, they'll all look for scapegoats to blame and vote to be mean to them. Trusting the people to decide anything in a coherent and joined up way would be foolish in the extreme considering how many of the lumpen masses are a bit thick. |
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Post by sheepy on Sept 9, 2023 20:22:13 GMT
At least it represents a peoples choice not a few arrogant politicos choice. If it were all left to the lumpen masses, they'd all vote for ever more spending on the stuff they like simply because they like those things. But they would also vote for ever lower taxes because nobody likes paying tax right? And when the inevitable bankruptcy occurs, they'll all look for scapegoats to blame and vote to be mean to them. Trusting the people to decide anything in a coherent and joined up way would be foolish in the extreme considering how many of the lumpen masses are a bit thick. Well if you say so, but if the state of the country after being ruled by the same old politicians for decades is anything to go by, I doubt they could make it any worse. |
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 9, 2023 21:05:03 GMT
Well I would totally agree that Democracy doesn't work very well but until someone comes up with a better system we have to roll with what we have. What I would say is Representative Democracy as enacted by Parliament does not work very well - the ideal would be for more direct Democracy, and if not that possibly PR with all the negatives that system brings with it. IMO "Direct democracy" leaves democracy vulnerable to the people with the loudest voices and the smallest minds, but with the greatest ability to influence others. A very dangerous road to take. So Switzerland is the shithole of Europe? Or is it that you know that direct democracy would not support the policies you support - so it must be bad?. |
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Post by Vinny on Sept 9, 2023 23:23:01 GMT
Srb look what you advocate and ask yourself where your train of thought, where your political ideas lead, there are historical precedents.
Oppose dictatorship, support those who stand democratically for the things you disagree with.
The alternative to democracy is dictatorship. Lets not go down that route.
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Post by steppenwolf on Sept 10, 2023 7:11:19 GMT
Basically your problem is that democracy leads to the election of people you don't like. And you obviously think you're clever so that means that a lot of voters are "bloody idiots". Have you ever considered that it may be you who's the "idiot"? No, of course not. IMO Trump was one of the best presidents the USA has had and Boris was one of our best PMs. And the "partisan broadcast media outlets" - by which I assume you mean the likes of GB News and Talk TV - have finally provided an outlet for the truth, which has been sadly sidelined by the BBC for decades. There's nothing wrong with democracy as a concept. Where democracy is actually enacted - like the Brexit referendum - it tends to lead to the correct decision. The problem is that our electoral system usually doesn't deliver democracy. We now have two main parties who both have the same policies which are at odds with what most of the country wants (net zero and other such bollocks). Your problem is that you're one of these self-important people who sneer at democracy as "populism". Well, sorry, but that's what democracy is. What utter bullshit. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like who people vote for. It a matter of people being too stupid to vote responsibly. Even some of the ones voting for people I might like. That you think GB News and Talk TV are outlets for truth and that Trump was one of the best American presidents signposts you as someone clearly delusional. Not sure such believers in an obvious fake reality should be trusted with a vote frankly. It's you who's delusional. Trump was voted for by the American people. You don't like Trump so you say the people who voted for him are stupid. So you basically don't like democracy. You want a different form of voting where the people who get elected are the ones you want - that's called a dictatorship - like they have in the EU. Actually if you put aside your personal feelings about Trump (and I certainly wouldn't disagree that he's a very flawed character to put it mildly) and look at what he did objectively he actually did a very good job for the US economy. He tried to make much needed reforms in other areas but was largely frustrated by the US judiciary. As for GB News and Talk TV you may mot like their format (and I think some of their presenters are pretty woeful) but they do give a platform for news and views that are ignored by the BBC because they don't fit the BBC's political agenda. They're unbiased - in that they give a platform for disparate views which has been lacking for decades. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2023 20:37:11 GMT
What utter bullshit. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like who people vote for. It a matter of people being too stupid to vote responsibly. Even some of the ones voting for people I might like. That you think GB News and Talk TV are outlets for truth and that Trump was one of the best American presidents signposts you as someone clearly delusional. Not sure such believers in an obvious fake reality should be trusted with a vote frankly. It's you who's delusional. Trump was voted for by the American people. You don't like Trump so you say the people who voted for him are stupid. So you basically don't like democracy. You want a different form of voting where the people who get elected are the ones you want - that's called a dictatorship - like they have in the EU. Actually if you put aside your personal feelings about Trump (and I certainly wouldn't disagree that he's a very flawed character to put it mildly) and look at what he did objectively he actually did a very good job for the US economy. He tried to make much needed reforms in other areas but was largely frustrated by the US judiciary. As for GB News and Talk TV you may mot like their format (and I think some of their presenters are pretty woeful) but they do give a platform for news and views that are ignored by the BBC because they don't fit the BBC's political agenda. They're unbiased - in that they give a platform for disparate views which has been lacking for decades. The fact that so many idiots vote is the only reason that such a narcissistic joke of a sociopath can get elected in the first place. No one with any brains would vote for someone like that unless deluding themselves. And even here - on this very forum it seems where we might expect all participants to be reasonably intelligent - there appear to be useful idiots deceiving themselves on his behalf. Buying into a demonstrably false reality of his own creation because of an apparent propensity for believing what they want to. At least the genuinely thick ones have their own stupidity as an excuse. Whats yours? Talk TV is many things. But unbiased is not one of them. Almost all of their presenters are far to the right, including the likes of Rees Mogg and Farage as presenters pushing their own agendas. In what alternate reality does this constitute lack of bias? The fact that you agree with their bias does not make it unbiased. You seem to lack the insight to even begin to understand that, which goes some way towards explaining why you so eagerly buy into Trumps rubbish in spite of being reasonably intelligent. You seem to think that anyone who agrees with you is unbiased without any capacity for differentiating between your own opinions, and objective reality. Thus in effect your default setting is that anyone who agrees with you is unbiased and anyone who doesnt is biased. Lack of insight into your own powers of reasoning appears to be something of an issue here. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 10, 2023 20:43:44 GMT
Srb look what you advocate and ask yourself where your train of thought, where your political ideas lead, there are historical precedents. Oppose dictatorship, support those who stand democratically for the things you disagree with. The alternative to democracy is dictatorship. Lets not go down that route. Like I have said I can see no better and safer alternative to democracy so am not pushing for one. But we do need genuine electoral reform to break open the current establishmentarian two party stitch up. And we need much more and much better political education in schools so we can gradually create a more knowledgeable, better informed and more questioning electorate. Because this would automatically improve the entire democratic process. But my despair at the state of democracy today is very genuine. Pretending all is fine and dandy will get us nowhere. |
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Post by sandypine on Sept 10, 2023 20:47:35 GMT
It's you who's delusional. Trump was voted for by the American people. You don't like Trump so you say the people who voted for him are stupid. So you basically don't like democracy. You want a different form of voting where the people who get elected are the ones you want - that's called a dictatorship - like they have in the EU. Actually if you put aside your personal feelings about Trump (and I certainly wouldn't disagree that he's a very flawed character to put it mildly) and look at what he did objectively he actually did a very good job for the US economy. He tried to make much needed reforms in other areas but was largely frustrated by the US judiciary. As for GB News and Talk TV you may mot like their format (and I think some of their presenters are pretty woeful) but they do give a platform for news and views that are ignored by the BBC because they don't fit the BBC's political agenda. They're unbiased - in that they give a platform for disparate views which has been lacking for decades. The fact that so many idiots vote is the only reason that such a narcissistic joke of a sociopath can get elected in the first place. No one with any brains would vote for someone like that unless deluding themselves. And even here - on this very forum it seems where we might expect all participants to be reasonably intelligent - there appear to be useful idiots deceiving themselves on his behalf. Buying into a demonstrably false reality of his own creation because of an apparent propensity for believing what they want to. At least the genuinely thick ones have their own stupidity as an excuse. Whats yours? Talk TV is many things. But unbiased is not one of them. Almost all of their presenters are far to the right, including the likes of Rees Mogg and Farage as presenters pushing their own agendas. In what alternate reality does this constitute lack of bias? The fact that you agree with their bias does not make it unbiased. You seem to lack the insight to even begin to understand that, which goes some way towards explaining why you so eagerly buy into Trumps rubbish in spite of being reasonably intelligent. You seem to think that anyone who agrees with you is unbiased without any capacity for differentiating between your own opinions, and objective reality. Thus in effect your default setting is that anyone who agrees with you is unbiased and anyone who doesnt is biased. Lack of insight into your own powers of reasoning appears to be something of an issue here. I am not sure what the false reality was. For one the Southern border was largely out of control and post Trump has become worse. The Democrats were promising and, then and now, overseeing a declining US on many fronts. Trump may well have been a flawed character, and in US politics who is not, but he had his finger on what the majority of US citizens saw as the problems of the country. |
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Post by wapentake on Sept 10, 2023 21:07:41 GMT
At least it represents a peoples choice not a few arrogant politicos choice. If it were all left to the lumpen masses, they'd all vote for ever more spending on the stuff they like simply because they like those things. But they would also vote for ever lower taxes because nobody likes paying tax right? And when the inevitable bankruptcy occurs, they'll all look for scapegoats to blame and vote to be mean to them. Trusting the people to decide anything in a coherent and joined up way would be foolish in the extreme considering how many of the lumpen masses are a bit thick. It’s not all idiocy of the electorate,don’t the main players consort and invest in keeping it simple whoever inhabits No 10 there is a status quo that the opposition parties support too because it’s in their interests |
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 10, 2023 21:13:42 GMT
Srb look what you advocate and ask yourself where your train of thought, where your political ideas lead, there are historical precedents. Oppose dictatorship, support those who stand democratically for the things you disagree with. The alternative to democracy is dictatorship. Lets not go down that route. Like I have said I can see no better and safer alternative to democracy so am not pushing for one. But we do need genuine electoral reform to break open the current establishmentarian two party stitch up. And we need much more and much better political education in schools so we can gradually create a more knowledgeable, better informed and more questioning electorate. Because this would automatically improve the entire democratic process. But my despair at the state of democracy today is very genuine. Pretending all is fine and dandy will get us nowhere. I totally agree with all of this. Electoral reform to break the 2 party system would be a good idea even if (it would) allow extremist parties in. I also agree about education in schools, we need kids learning about the political system in the UK and how to change things - at the moment they seem to think that skipping school to listen to a strange girl from Sweden and glueing themselves to the roads will achieve change. That being said the State system seems to have problems teaching them to read and write so I'm not convinced that bringing back lessons on the constitution is going to achieve much. |
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Post by dodgydave on Sept 10, 2023 22:24:03 GMT
As you said everybody has rights as he has to raise this issue,whether so many are ignorant or stupid is up for discussion and if all is well in the western world and a paradise as you see it why bother with a politics discussion forum? And in this case you believe him the only fool for even questioning that yet in another thread declare most of the people in this country are fat fu**ers who are all going to die because they can’t take responsibility for themselves ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/post/141410So who is the foolish one now or can’t you appreciate the parallel between the two? If you can’t see that the nations best interests have been ignored for decades by the lack of long term policies then perhaps you need to look closer ,anyway as you believe we live in this paradise that works well and is scrutinised by the press and cross party and our best interests are served well and it’s just the money that’s the problem and we are all moaners and three quarters will die soon because we are too fat then that will leave plenty of room here won’t it for the millions coming north from Africa you say we can’t stop. ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/post/141413I refer you to Red Rackhams copyright one word reply. Define "the nations best interests"? My point is there is no such thing because we are identical robots, we are 67 million INDIVIDUALS with DIFFERING INTERESTS. You (luckily) live in one of the best countries on earth, that it is an undisputable fact. That should be your starting point, and debate how we can make it even better. Not ideological nonsense that democracy doesn't work or the government is working against the nations best interest crap. If "the system" didn't work then you wouldn't be enjoying one of the best standards of living on the planet would you!!! Politics in the UK is open to everybody, this idea that we are kept down by "the establishment" is utter bollocks. Our political parties are not closed shops, you can literally join any of them and have a democratic say in their policies. The only person that limits anybody in this country is themselves. |
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Post by steppenwolf on Sept 11, 2023 6:56:44 GMT
It's you who's delusional. Trump was voted for by the American people. You don't like Trump so you say the people who voted for him are stupid. So you basically don't like democracy. You want a different form of voting where the people who get elected are the ones you want - that's called a dictatorship - like they have in the EU. Actually if you put aside your personal feelings about Trump (and I certainly wouldn't disagree that he's a very flawed character to put it mildly) and look at what he did objectively he actually did a very good job for the US economy. He tried to make much needed reforms in other areas but was largely frustrated by the US judiciary. As for GB News and Talk TV you may mot like their format (and I think some of their presenters are pretty woeful) but they do give a platform for news and views that are ignored by the BBC because they don't fit the BBC's political agenda. They're unbiased - in that they give a platform for disparate views which has been lacking for decades. The fact that so many idiots vote is the only reason that such a narcissistic joke of a sociopath can get elected in the first place. No one with any brains would vote for someone like that unless deluding themselves. And even here - on this very forum it seems where we might expect all participants to be reasonably intelligent - there appear to be useful idiots deceiving themselves on his behalf. Buying into a demonstrably false reality of his own creation because of an apparent propensity for believing what they want to. At least the genuinely thick ones have their own stupidity as an excuse. Whats yours? Talk TV is many things. But unbiased is not one of them. Almost all of their presenters are far to the right, including the likes of Rees Mogg and Farage as presenters pushing their own agendas. In what alternate reality does this constitute lack of bias? The fact that you agree with their bias does not make it unbiased. You seem to lack the insight to even begin to understand that, which goes some way towards explaining why you so eagerly buy into Trumps rubbish in spite of being reasonably intelligent. You seem to think that anyone who agrees with you is unbiased without any capacity for differentiating between your own opinions, and objective reality. Thus in effect your default setting is that anyone who agrees with you is unbiased and anyone who doesnt is biased. Lack of insight into your own powers of reasoning appears to be something of an issue here. Whether Trump is a narcissistic sociopath or not I don't know, but I don't vote for leaders on a personal judgement of their character - I vote on the basis of their policies. And Trump's policies were good - he helped the economy and tried to tighten up border control. You seem to want a leader that you personally like - someone you think is a "good" person. I don't think that's relevant. And I cant prove it, but my firm opinion is that if Trump had been president Putin would never have invaded Ukraine. The weakness of Biden was all the encouragement that Putin needed. As for the "bias" on Talk TV or GB News the presenters may be biased - just as the BBC presenters most certainly are biased - but the point is that they still give a platform to people who hold opposing views to their own. In fact they make a point of doing that. And they make a point of letting them have their say. The BBC simply doesn't do this. In fact in certain areas (such as climate change) they have made it editorial policy to not give a platform to anyone who doesn't conform to their declared orthodoxy. The BBC have decided hat they are the arbiters of "truth". That's a very dangerous and slippery slope. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2023 7:07:52 GMT
IMO "Direct democracy" leaves democracy vulnerable to the people with the loudest voices and the smallest minds, but with the greatest ability to influence others. A very dangerous road to take. At least it represents a peoples choice not a few arrogant politicos choice. They appear to have a very low opinion of other people, which says a lot about them personally. |
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Post by Deleted on Sept 11, 2023 9:31:13 GMT
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Post by see2 on Sept 11, 2023 9:41:38 GMT
IMO "Direct democracy" leaves democracy vulnerable to the people with the loudest voices and the smallest minds, but with the greatest ability to influence others. A very dangerous road to take. So Switzerland is the shithole of Europe? Or is it that you know that direct democracy would not support the policies you support - so it must be bad?. Well Switzerland did make its wealth on the back of converting Nazi stolen gold into currency, which has been estimated by some to have lengthened WWII by up to two years. Switzerland has a population of less than 9 million people, so perhaps referendum can work there. Our last referendum was full of dishonesty, exaggerations and dreamers, with those with the loudest voices and the smallest minds, mostly apparently right-wingers like Farage, and those who believed the nonsense about 'bent bananas', won the day. Hardly a recommendation for 'direct democracy' in this country. |
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