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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2023 20:38:28 GMT
These thoughts have been germinating in my mind for some time, but I am rapidly reaching the conclusion that democracy does not actually work for the greater good. And the inherent problem is that for everyone who thinks deeply about politics and has a high degree of interest in, and knowledge about, the subject, like most of us here, there are 20 others who are uninterested, lack the time or inclination to think deeply about it, or are just plain stupid and almost entirely ignorant about the subject. And I am not making any partisan point here because the thoughtful, knowledgeable, and intelligent ones exist right across the political spectrum from left to right. But we are vastly outnumbered by all the others. many of whom are susceptible to having their buttons pressed and being told what to think. The tabloid press has now been joined by various partisan broadcast media outlets not to mention numerous dubious sources on the internet, where bad actors paid by rogue or enemy states pump out crap that is useful to them.
And look where this is leading western democracies. Trump as president of America. Boris Johnson as prime minister here. All sorts of dodgy and dubious characters being elected all over the place because of this simple yet brutal fact - when it comes to politics most voters are bloody idiots. And that basic fact - that most voters are bloody idiots - is the inherent flaw with democracy. My friends on the left tend to declare that the solution lies in far better political education in schools, but that will never happen. The powers that be have a vested interest in most voters remaining stupid. Makes them far easier to hoodwink and manipulate. Intelligent people might start laying the blame for all that is wrong on those who are actually in charge and have the power to change things. Stupid people are far easier to persuade to direct their anger at mostly powerless target groups that are easy to vilify. Then the powers that be can win the votes they need from the idiots by promising to get tough on these target groups. It is of course mostly just rhetoric. Because the same easy to vilify target groups are still there, year after year. They need them to be.
So as the lumpen masses direct their anger at those with less power even than themselves - asylum seekers or welfare claimants for example - they are not directing it at those who are really in charge. Because the killer question, the one they fear the masses thinking of let alone asking, is why are our taxes higher than they have ever been yet every service under the sun is so starved of cash that nothing works anymore? And where therefore is all the pigging money going? They need most of us to remain too stupid to think of this, let alone get angry about it. And so, democracy cannot work properly because hidden elites have a vested interest in most people being too stupid to think intelligently about things. Anyone who understands politics is always going to be outvoted by scores of idiots.
Democracy can only really work properly if every voter is informed, thoughtful and intelligent. But nowhere is that ever allowed to be the case.
What the solution is I do not really know, but I feel sure our nation would be better run if the franchise were restricted to people with at least half a brain and a modicum of knowledge.
I thus find myself in an intellectual and philosophical bind. My whole politics is based upon being a champion for the struggling millions, a campaigner for a better deal for the masses. Yet democracy serving the interests of an elite few relies upon these masses remaining ignorant and stupid. And in many cases voting against their own best interests because someone has pressed their angry button about someone even lower down.
Philosophically this leads me into a thought process in tension, between an intense sympathy for the downtrodden, yet at a the same time a contempt for their malleable stupidity.
Not sure yet where this leads me. But neither am I totally certain anymore that democracy itself is the least bad option. There must be something better than one person one vote when the majority of those persons are idiots.
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Post by wapentake on Sept 8, 2023 20:44:19 GMT
Deep stuff Steve needs a while to answer.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 8, 2023 21:05:56 GMT
Well I would totally agree that Democracy doesn't work very well but until someone comes up with a better system we have to roll with what we have.
What I would say is Representative Democracy as enacted by Parliament does not work very well - the ideal would be for more direct Democracy, and if not that possibly PR with all the negatives that system brings with it.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 8, 2023 21:35:02 GMT
Well I would totally agree that Democracy doesn't work very well but until someone comes up with a better system we have to roll with what we have. What I would say is Representative Democracy as enacted by Parliament does not work very well - the ideal would be for more direct Democracy, and if not that possibly PR with all the negatives that system brings with it. I agree that democracy has not been working very well particularly of late. But as you say, coming up with something better is fraught with risk. Lenin thought he had something better on the left. Hitler thought the same on the right. Yet both showed that when the will of the people, including all those idiots out there, no longer mattered then the road to tyranny was short and swift. So anything better than democracy would have to pass the safeguarding of liberty and guarantee of ultimate accountability test. A restricted franchise where the right to vote is dependent upon sufficient intelligence to properly exercise that right has obvious attractions. But the obvious danger is the intelligent with the franchise using their power to oppress the less intelligent masses without a vote. Which would be just another form of tyranny. As for more direct democracy, the problem will be the same. The majority of voters would be idiots. Indeed direct democracy could make the problem worse by cutting out the often far more politically knowledgeable and intelligent elected representative. Though Nadine Dorries on the right and Diane Abbot on the left do both serve to demonstrate that being elected does not necessarily mean that you are not thick. But you do have to have gone through some sort of vetting process by your party likely to favour intelligence. That the occasional thicko gets through this process is generally a failing of their party, which tends to happen more often in safe seats, a particular problem with our particular form of democracy.
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Post by The Squeezed Middle on Sept 8, 2023 22:27:17 GMT
I think that democracy works just fine but we haven't had anything near worthy of the name for decades.
We have two parties that are functionally identical, whichever one wins does so with around a third of the actual vote and "Representative democracy" is a farce whereby we vote for people who promise one thing and then do another.
To blame that mess on democracy is, I think, to miss the point that the UK electoral system of faux democracy is simply an establishment stitch up.
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Post by jonksy on Sept 8, 2023 22:58:19 GMT
I think that democracy works just fine but we haven't had anything near worthy of the name for decades. We have two parties that are functionally identical, whichever one wins does so with around a third of the actual vote and "Representative democracy" is a farce whereby we vote for people who promise one thing and then do another. To blame that mess on democracy is, I think, to miss the point that the UK electoral system of faux democracy is simply an establishment stitch up. We can change the government but undortunately we cannor change te establishment
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Post by Montegriffo on Sept 8, 2023 23:11:00 GMT
If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it.
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Post by wapentake on Sept 8, 2023 23:20:13 GMT
If voting made any difference they wouldn't let us do it. Half right,frightened them enough in to holding a referendum And then they ignored it.
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Post by dodgydave on Sept 9, 2023 0:10:10 GMT
Democracy works just fine, the problem is you are just ungrateful and cannot see the woods for the trees. Step outside of Western democracies for any length of time and you will see what a paradise they actually are compared to the rest of the world.
The problem is you have bad faith actors trying to sell you the narrative that your country is fucked 24/7, when the reality is that if you are born into a Western Democracy right now, you are one of the luckiest people to have ever lived!!
Yes there are problems, but blaming it on the "ignorant" or "stupid" is foolish. Everybody is allowed to vote, everybody is allowed to join a political party, everybody is allowed to join special interest group and lobby politicians, everybody is allowed to protest, everybody can speak to their MP. It is also their right to not give two shits and do none of the above because they are too busy getting on with their lives.
As for politicians ignoring the will of the people, or not following their best interests, that is bollocks too. There are 67 million people in the UK, it is impossible to please them all 100% of the time. Everything our government does is scrutinised by multiple cross party committees, the free press and an independent judiciary. If we are honest the country mostly works just fine, the challenge is fixing the difficult problems within a finite budget.
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Post by steppenwolf on Sept 9, 2023 6:41:38 GMT
The tabloid press has now been joined by various partisan broadcast media outlets not to mention numerous dubious sources on the internet, where bad actors paid by rogue or enemy states pump out crap that is useful to them. And look where this is leading western democracies. Trump as president of America. Boris Johnson as prime minister here. All sorts of dodgy and dubious characters being elected all over the place because of this simple yet brutal fact - when it comes to politics most voters are bloody idiots. And that basic fact - that most voters are bloody idiots - is the inherent flaw with democracy. Basically your problem is that democracy leads to the election of people you don't like. And you obviously think you're clever so that means that a lot of voters are "bloody idiots". Have you ever considered that it may be you who's the "idiot"? No, of course not. IMO Trump was one of the best presidents the USA has had and Boris was one of our best PMs. And the "partisan broadcast media outlets" - by which I assume you mean the likes of GB News and Talk TV - have finally provided an outlet for the truth, which has been sadly sidelined by the BBC for decades. There's nothing wrong with democracy as a concept. Where democracy is actually enacted - like the Brexit referendum - it tends to lead to the correct decision. The problem is that our electoral system usually doesn't deliver democracy. We now have two main parties who both have the same policies which are at odds with what most of the country wants (net zero and other such bollocks). Your problem is that you're one of these self-important people who sneer at democracy as "populism". Well, sorry, but that's what democracy is.
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Post by Pacifico on Sept 9, 2023 6:52:04 GMT
As for politicians ignoring the will of the people, or not following their best interests, that is bollocks too. There are 67 million people in the UK, it is impossible to please them all 100% of the time. Everything our government does is scrutinised by multiple cross party committees, the free press and an independent judiciary. If we are honest the country mostly works just fine, the challenge is fixing the difficult problems within a finite budget. The last 5 Governments have been elected on a promise to reduce immigration...... we currently have record levels of immigration. How does that fit with following the will of the people? "There will be fewer lower-skilled migrants and overall numbers will come down" - 2019 "We also believe that immigration should be controlled and reduced" - 2017 "our action has not been enough to cut annual net migration to the tens of thousands. That ambition remains the right one" - 2015 "But immigration today is too high and needs to be reduced." - 2010 "We will ensure that only skilled workers are allowed to settle long-term in the UK, with English language tests for everyone who wants to stay permanently and an end to chain migration" - 2005
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Post by sheepy on Sept 9, 2023 7:27:56 GMT
I always smile when the left or right for that matter blame populism for all of their woes, the politicos in government of whatever flavour don't like it because it questions what they are actually doing in this fallacy of representative democracy. Yet the people have proved time and again they love it.
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Post by wapentake on Sept 9, 2023 7:56:17 GMT
Democracy works just fine, the problem is you are just ungrateful and cannot see the woods for the trees. Step outside of Western democracies for any length of time and you will see what a paradise they actually are compared to the rest of the world. The problem is you have bad faith actors trying to sell you the narrative that your country is fucked 24/7, when the reality is that if you are born into a Western Democracy right now, you are one of the luckiest people to have ever lived!! Yes there are problems, but blaming it on the "ignorant" or "stupid" is foolish. Everybody is allowed to vote, everybody is allowed to join a political party, everybody is allowed to join special interest group and lobby politicians, everybody is allowed to protest, everybody can speak to their MP. It is also their right to not give two shits and do none of the above because they are too busy getting on with their lives. As for politicians ignoring the will of the people, or not following their best interests, that is bollocks too. There are 67 million people in the UK, it is impossible to please them all 100% of the time. Everything our government does is scrutinised by multiple cross party committees, the free press and an independent judiciary. If we are honest the country mostly works just fine, the challenge is fixing the difficult problems within a finite budget. As you said everybody has rights as he has to raise this issue,whether so many are ignorant or stupid is up for discussion and if all is well in the western world and a paradise as you see it why bother with a politics discussion forum? And in this case you believe him the only fool for even questioning that yet in another thread declare most of the people in this country are fat fu**ers who are all going to die because they can’t take responsibility for themselves ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/post/141410So who is the foolish one now or can’t you appreciate the parallel between the two? If you can’t see that the nations best interests have been ignored for decades by the lack of long term policies then perhaps you need to look closer ,anyway as you believe we live in this paradise that works well and is scrutinised by the press and cross party and our best interests are served well and it’s just the money that’s the problem and we are all moaners and three quarters will die soon because we are too fat then that will leave plenty of room here won’t it for the millions coming north from Africa you say we can’t stop. ukpoliticsdebate.boards.net/post/141413I refer you to Red Rackhams copyright one word reply.
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Post by Vanna on Sept 9, 2023 8:18:00 GMT
This is an excellent OP. I asked this question years ago on one of the new dead versions of this group of forummers. I called it "Quo Vadis Politics" because I think politics itself is partially responsible for the way in which political philosophies and ideologies on the administration and control of populations find expression. More often than not in draconian legislation and final dictatorship.
The OP makes several very pertinent points about why masses are the reason things go wrong. The herd instinct coupled with the need to appear to be acceptably "good" and please authority.
Perhaps this cannot be erased from human group think. There have been witch burnings, torture, skullduggery, beheadings, poisonings, religious fanaticism and graft and still the masses can be swayed if you tell them you are going to give them stuff.
I don't know what the answer is to this anomaly but the OP nevertheless hits the nail on the head when it mentions the sheer idiocy of those who refuse to stop and think for themselves.
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Post by sandypine on Sept 9, 2023 8:28:38 GMT
As for politicians ignoring the will of the people, or not following their best interests, that is bollocks too. There are 67 million people in the UK, it is impossible to please them all 100% of the time. Everything our government does is scrutinised by multiple cross party committees, the free press and an independent judiciary. If we are honest the country mostly works just fine, the challenge is fixing the difficult problems within a finite budget. The last 5 Governments have been elected on a promise to reduce immigration...... we currently have record levels of immigration. How does that fit with following the will of the people? "There will be fewer lower-skilled migrants and overall numbers will come down" - 2019 "We also believe that immigration should be controlled and reduced" - 2017 "our action has not been enough to cut annual net migration to the tens of thousands. That ambition remains the right one" - 2015 "But immigration today is too high and needs to be reduced." - 2010 "We will ensure that only skilled workers are allowed to settle long-term in the UK, with English language tests for everyone who wants to stay permanently and an end to chain migration" - 2005 I think almost every manifesto for 60 years will have had similar statements of intent. Realistically in order to negate democracy one has to destroy the homogeneity of the electorate in which the belief existed that X has a right to govern as both X and Y are of us. Once one creates disparate communities of any size then there is belief that people of different communities act mainly for their own kind. It was said of white people, now if one says it of ethnic minorities one is racist. Diversity is not a strength it is a dividing influence used as a means to divide and rule, a time honoured method of control.
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