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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 9:46:27 GMT
I think that democracy works just fine but we haven't had anything near worthy of the name for decades. We have two parties that are functionally identical, whichever one wins does so with around a third of the actual vote and "Representative democracy" is a farce whereby we vote for people who promise one thing and then do another. To blame that mess on democracy is, I think, to miss the point that the UK electoral system of faux democracy is simply an establishment stitch up. That UK democracy is - and always has been - an establishment stitch up is surely undeniable for any intelligent person. But the problem of electorates dominated by idiots makes the stitch up far easier to maintain. Nor is the UK unique in having millions of idiots voting. It is a common weak link in democracies everywhere. The average American voter for example actually makes the average British one look intelligent in comparison.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 9:52:53 GMT
The tabloid press has now been joined by various partisan broadcast media outlets not to mention numerous dubious sources on the internet, where bad actors paid by rogue or enemy states pump out crap that is useful to them. And look where this is leading western democracies. Trump as president of America. Boris Johnson as prime minister here. All sorts of dodgy and dubious characters being elected all over the place because of this simple yet brutal fact - when it comes to politics most voters are bloody idiots. And that basic fact - that most voters are bloody idiots - is the inherent flaw with democracy. Basically your problem is that democracy leads to the election of people you don't like. And you obviously think you're clever so that means that a lot of voters are "bloody idiots". Have you ever considered that it may be you who's the "idiot"? No, of course not. IMO Trump was one of the best presidents the USA has had and Boris was one of our best PMs. And the "partisan broadcast media outlets" - by which I assume you mean the likes of GB News and Talk TV - have finally provided an outlet for the truth, which has been sadly sidelined by the BBC for decades. There's nothing wrong with democracy as a concept. Where democracy is actually enacted - like the Brexit referendum - it tends to lead to the correct decision. The problem is that our electoral system usually doesn't deliver democracy. We now have two main parties who both have the same policies which are at odds with what most of the country wants (net zero and other such bollocks). Your problem is that you're one of these self-important people who sneer at democracy as "populism". Well, sorry, but that's what democracy is. What utter bullshit. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like who people vote for. It a matter of people being too stupid to vote responsibly. Even some of the ones voting for people I might like. That you think GB News and Talk TV are outlets for truth and that Trump was one of the best American presidents signposts you as someone clearly delusional. Not sure such believers in an obvious fake reality should be trusted with a vote frankly.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 11:31:29 GMT
I always smile when the left or right for that matter blame populism for all of their woes, the politicos in government of whatever flavour don't like it because it questions what they are actually doing in this fallacy of representative democracy. Yet the people have proved time and again they love it. Although it's actually quite a well thought out OP, but implies that universal suffrage should be abandoned in favour of an intelligence test prior to being allowed a vote. Or perhaps we could go back to land owners and men only being allowed the vote? Of course not. However, democracy surely is on the rocks, and that is because of the lack of choices between the LIB-LAB-CONS, who don't have an ounce of common sense between them.
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Post by Orac on Sept 9, 2023 13:01:01 GMT
I feel it's better to think of democracy as a conflict resolution social technology, rather than a means to get the best decision.
Even though democracy can produce bad decisions, the fact that those decision are arrived at without giant pitched battles, is efficient
Taking sandy's comments on board, it may not be advantageous where we currently are - ie in a situation in which the population is heavily divided by various loyalties. You can't do democracy if your population is six nations fighting over who takes control
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Post by Vinny on Sept 9, 2023 13:10:30 GMT
Democracy was hard won and is fragile it is easily lost.
The moment losers get to dictate to the winners, it is over, finito, gone. And no matter how well intended, the losers intentions, dictatorship is dictatorship. What next, gassing people who don't go along?
If you do not defend the democratic rights of your opponents and seek to crush them with legislation, you will become as bad, if not worse, than those you denigrate.
I don't like Trump, and the way he behaved after his defeat, was disgraceful.
But who did he learn his anti democratic behaviour from? That's right, previous bad losers who thought they knew best, who thought that democratic votes could be ignored.
People like the losers in the EU referendum who surrounded Parliament protesting and crying and making out that the decision to leave was fascist and could be ignored.
They were the fucking fascists and look what they've unleashed...
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Post by sandypine on Sept 9, 2023 13:58:30 GMT
Basically your problem is that democracy leads to the election of people you don't like. And you obviously think you're clever so that means that a lot of voters are "bloody idiots". Have you ever considered that it may be you who's the "idiot"? No, of course not. IMO Trump was one of the best presidents the USA has had and Boris was one of our best PMs. And the "partisan broadcast media outlets" - by which I assume you mean the likes of GB News and Talk TV - have finally provided an outlet for the truth, which has been sadly sidelined by the BBC for decades. There's nothing wrong with democracy as a concept. Where democracy is actually enacted - like the Brexit referendum - it tends to lead to the correct decision. The problem is that our electoral system usually doesn't deliver democracy. We now have two main parties who both have the same policies which are at odds with what most of the country wants (net zero and other such bollocks). Your problem is that you're one of these self-important people who sneer at democracy as "populism". Well, sorry, but that's what democracy is. What utter bullshit. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like who people vote for. It a matter of people being too stupid to vote responsibly. Even some of the ones voting for people I might like. That you think GB News and Talk TV are outlets for truth and that Trump was one of the best American presidents signposts you as someone clearly delusional. Not sure such believers in an obvious fake reality should be trusted with a vote frankly. No news media is an outlet for truth and therein lies the problem. The BBC is now recognised by many as being very biased in certain aspects and is not trusted to deal with isssues impartially
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 14:55:17 GMT
What utter bullshit. It has nothing to do with whether or not I like who people vote for. It a matter of people being too stupid to vote responsibly. Even some of the ones voting for people I might like. That you think GB News and Talk TV are outlets for truth and that Trump was one of the best American presidents signposts you as someone clearly delusional. Not sure such believers in an obvious fake reality should be trusted with a vote frankly. No news media is an outlet for truth and therein lies the problem. The BBC is now recognised by many as being very biased in certain aspects and is not trusted to deal with isssues impartially I agree. They all in their own ways seek to serve the wishes of the establishment, including the BBC. With the exception of a variety of sources on the internet promoted by bad actors in other potentially hostile nations. But only a minority of the electorate shows enough thought to attempt to discern whose interests any particular source is serving and trying to figure out the actual truth. Some even on here lack sufficient insight into their own thinking to discern any difference between what they like the sound of and what the actual truth is. Thus the outlet that tells you what you want to believe is therefore the least biased and most truthful, even if to a discerning mind it clearly isn't. Confirmation bias in action. Which leads some into genuinely believing that the most biased outlets like GB News are in fact paragons of truth because it confirms all their own pre-existing biases. Most of us of course will struggle to maintain a straight face in the face of claims that GB News is a paragon of truth. I doubt they even bother to ask themselves whose interests these outlets are serving. Because if they work that one out, they start to understand the real agenda going on. And it is not to tell us the unvarnished truth. It is to press all the right angry buttons in our heads so we can be manipulated to their advantage. Which has long been a favourite control tactic by the establishmentarian elites but it has been proven to work.
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Post by Orac on Sept 9, 2023 15:31:51 GMT
Srb,
You are just doing what you claim others are doing, you just have a different labels on those buttons. Who told you to picture the people who disagree with you as idiots? Was it the BBC?
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 15:43:45 GMT
I always smile when the left or right for that matter blame populism for all of their woes, the politicos in government of whatever flavour don't like it because it questions what they are actually doing in this fallacy of representative democracy. Yet the people have proved time and again they love it. Although it's actually quite a well thought out OP, but implies that universal suffrage should be abandoned in favour of an intelligence test prior to being allowed a vote. Or perhaps we could go back to land owners and men only being allowed the vote? Of course not. However, democracy surely is on the rocks, and that is because of the lack of choices between the LIB-LAB-CONS, who don't have an ounce of common sense between them. You are conflating very different things. If widespread stupidity and lack of knowledge or intelligence is a problem for the workings of a democracy - as it clearly is all too often - then what does that have to do with property qualifications or disenfranchising women? Because if widespread stupidity is the problem, than barring women from voting only makes sense if all women are stupid and all men are intelligent. Which is clearly a nonsense. Similar with property qualifications, the ownership of said property being no guarantee of intelligence, nor the lack of ownership proof of stupidity. The problem with democracy as it functions today which I have identified is one of mass stupidity, not one of gender identity or amount of property owned. These latter should not be conflated with the former. Because identifying them with the real issue is actually a straw man argument. Like most people I would be implacably opposed to property qualifications or denying women the vote. Though I can see a degree of desirability in idiots not voting. However, I am not calling for mandating that. I have identified the primary problem with democracy without having any well thought out solutions to that problem. Better political education in schools would gradually improve the situation over time but it would take a long time to make a difference. And I cannot see the powers that be initiating it. Because a better educated and more politically knowledgeable electorate, taught to question what they are told would be a much harder electorate to control and manipulate and hoodwink. And of course the danger inherent in intelligence tests as a requirement for voting, as with all imagined voting restrictions of any kind, is the can of worms being opened and where it could lead. Because the powers that be would not be above manipulating the questions so as to ensure the ones they can rely on are more likely to pass. Any such tinkering is the thin end of a dangerous wedge. I cannot think of any better, as well as safer, alternative to democracy. Historically, electorates that have rejected democracy because of its failings have always ended up with something much worse. If I come up with something I believe to be a better alternative to democracy, I will bring it to the table here. But I have none for now, and am thus filled with despair at the realisation that the least bad option for us is to continue to allow the idiotic masses to decide who runs the country, all of them effectively manipulated by the establishmentarian elites in their own interests and not ours. So thus my only fall back position for now is to want better political education in schools so that gradually over time we create a better informed and more politically aware electorate less easy to manipulate and be lied to. And also real electoral reform to free us of the two party establishmentarian stitch up and to allow all voices to be heard in parliament. Until or unless I can come up with an effective solution to the empowerment of idiots that does not potentially threaten our freedoms, the above is all I have in the face of a serious flaw with the workings of democracy itself. Namely, that the majority of voters are idiots. And all my experience serving people every day in retail, not to mention my past experience speaking to voters on the doorstep when I was in Labour, has only served to massively enlighten me as to just how many total idiots there are out there. They are everywhere. The sheer stupidity of some people is a wonder to behold.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 15:53:27 GMT
Srb, You are just doing what you claim others are doing, you just have a different labels on those buttons. Who told you to picture the people who disagree with you as idiots? Was it the BBC? We all have our potential angry buttons yes. But most intelligent people resist the attempts of others to press them without first giving it some thought. I include you and most if not all members of this forum as such intelligent and thoughtful individuals. But we are a minority of the electorate as a whole. Most people are not political anoraks like us. And if you think I trust the BBC you do not know me at all. I serve the public every day in my job, and have also spoken to people on the doorstep. I have seen with my own eyes just how many idiots there are out there. And you yourself, might I point out, are without even realising it probably, inventing a straw man. By this I mean that you automatically assume that I am referring to all those who disagree with me as being the idiots for doing so. Nonsense. Plenty of intelligent people disagree with me. Yourself for example. You are not one of the ill informed idiots of whom I speak. Whether people are idiots or not has nothing to do with whether they agree with me or not. That latter factor is entirely irrelevant.
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Post by oracle75 on Sept 9, 2023 16:27:43 GMT
Theoretically it is the system which best respects the individual wishes of each person equally. But in practise it has been taken advantage of, convoluted, pulled out of shape, lied about and used for personal advantage. As for the UK, democracy would best be served if it got rid of the whipping system. The idea of someone forcing your elected representative to vote in a particular way is anti democratic.
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Post by sheepy on Sept 9, 2023 17:35:42 GMT
It isn't the fault of the electorate if they are told they are voting for one thing but get something completely different, not even occasionally, constantly. The blame should lie with exactly those at fault, the Westminster party.
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Post by see2 on Sept 9, 2023 18:16:48 GMT
Well I would totally agree that Democracy doesn't work very well but until someone comes up with a better system we have to roll with what we have. What I would say is Representative Democracy as enacted by Parliament does not work very well - the ideal would be for more direct Democracy, and if not that possibly PR with all the negatives that system brings with it. IMO "Direct democracy" leaves democracy vulnerable to the people with the loudest voices and the smallest minds, but with the greatest ability to influence others. A very dangerous road to take.
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Post by sheepy on Sept 9, 2023 18:31:00 GMT
Well I would totally agree that Democracy doesn't work very well but until someone comes up with a better system we have to roll with what we have. What I would say is Representative Democracy as enacted by Parliament does not work very well - the ideal would be for more direct Democracy, and if not that possibly PR with all the negatives that system brings with it. IMO "Direct democracy" leaves democracy vulnerable to the people with the loudest voices and the smallest minds, but with the greatest ability to influence others. A very dangerous road to take. At least it represents a peoples choice not a few arrogant politicos choice.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 9, 2023 18:34:26 GMT
Theoretically it is the system which best respects the individual wishes of each person equally. But in practise it has been taken advantage of, convoluted, pulled out of shape, lied about and used for personal advantage. As for the UK, democracy would best be served if it got rid of the whipping system. The idea of someone forcing your elected representative to vote in a particular way is anti democratic. Our voting system also throws up seats that are so safe for one party or another that there is virtually zero chance of them being voted out by their electorate, many of whom would mindlessly vote for the right colour of rosette even if it were worn by a baboon. The only way these MPs will ever be ousted is if their own party deselects them. In practice, what this means is that they are far more accountable to a small number of often unrepresentative local party members than they ever are to their electorate. They can say or do what they like as long as they dont upset their local party membership because the sheeple at large will still knuckle drag their way to a polling station and vote for them anyway. Which no doubt goes some way towards explaining why the poorest quality MPs often sit in very safe seats.
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